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Post 0

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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I'm not an Ayn Rand fan, more accurately I'm opposed to "true believers" of all stripes. I have written extensively on Dailykos under this same user name, being respected by some for my independence, not accepting the progressive memes any more than that of the right.

Yes, I used the word "progressive" rather than liberal, or left, as this is what discourse has become, striping language of its capacity to elucidate and turning them into emotional stimuli, so while the estate tax was generally popular, the death tax is opposed by the public.

I don't know whether it is even possible to transcend this anymore, as it certainly has affected the highest levels of academia. Rand was dead wrong on one thing, her focus on the individual. She was an atheist but she ignored the human commonality with other social species that can't survive in isolation. Morality, the social consciousness she decried is the ultimate of self interest, as any wolf, goose or ant would understand.

The only question for me is whether this site is open, whether it reflects the political courage of Ron Paul who is the only potential president who decries our sacrificing constitutional civil liberties in pursuit of our eternal War on Terror.

I guess I'll find out pretty soon

Post 1

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 1:08pmSanction this postReply
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Al Rodbell,

"Rand was dead wrong on one thing"... or maybe you are dead wrong in your interpretation? It seems that you have interpreted her position in the same way as many socialists like to, which is a straw man simplification of her morality.

Not that I accept Rand's deduction of a moral conclusion from non-moral premises. I think choosing the purpose to your life is a personal thing that simply can't be deduced. Furthermore, how you go about accomplishing your goal depends on many factors like individual capabilities, and which other entities you have chosen as your friends, enemies, slaves, and neutrals. Rand would argue that we should make political decisions as the most capable and work-loving man does, but his political position is not attractive for the people that want to leech off of others.

I am personally less dogmatic and more flexible than the ARI type. I do not hate libertarians because "They do not have the philosophical underpinning." And yes, I prefer Ron Paul over all of the other candidates. Next I'd prefer Gary Johnson.

Ron Paul for President!
- Dean

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Post 2

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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I like Ron Paul the most because he wants to:

1. End the Federal Reserve and return money to the free market. Or at least go back to the gold standard for the federal government, and permit free market currencies.

2. Immediately cut $1T from the federal budget.

3. Transform our military from world police & nation building to a retaliatory and preemptive force against foreigners who attack and make clear and present plans to attack Americans.

4. End the war on drugs, end the FDA, repeal obamacare, ...

5. Eliminate the income, capital gains, and death taxes

6, 7, 8... These can all be found at on his 2012 presidential candidate website.

Ron Paul is sooo awesome!

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Post 3

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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I think you're asking if this is a pro-Paul site.  It isn't.  Some here like him, and some don't.  I find his anti-Americanism, his stands on immigration and abortion, his racist past (and insincere denials thereof), his hypocrisy about special-interest spending and his sheer unseriousness repellent.  If I voted I wouldn't vote for him.

You have some homework to do before you'll be in a position to criticize Rand.  In the meantime, stick to Daily Kos.


Post 4

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 2:31pmSanction this postReply
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Welcome to RoR, Al.

This site is "open" but not "wide open." There is some discretion over what kinds of things can be said in what kinds of forums (rather than having just any kind of thing being said in any kind of forum). You cannot just come on and repeatedly post something like "Ayn Rand sucks."

We have this specific forum (dedicated to dissent) for those who would like to engage others in anti-Rand or contra-Objectivism arguments. An example of something that is appropriate for the dissent forum is a philosophical argument for Christianity.

Ed

p.s. One of the recent criticisms of Ayn Rand comes from Anne C. Heller, and it appears to be the same criticism of which you speak. Would you please confirm or deny this?


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Post 5

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 2:44pmSanction this postReply
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Al Rodbell,

I read your post three times and am still unclear about its purpose. What is a "true believer"? What is wrong with the focus on the individual? What human commonality is there with other social species (by definition non-human)?


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Post 6

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 5:32pmSanction this postReply
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In the interest of exploring the "commonality" argument, I want to post this citation:

As we began to live longer, new problems developed, because we now found ourselves in circumstances that did not track with our evolutionary biology. One set of problems arose as a result of higher population densities. By our living together in cities and being in close proximity to many people, the rapid spread of plague was made easier. The invention of the sewer greatly enhanced our species' longevity, as it dealt directly with waste management and the problem of disease. The invention of the subway and other modes of public transportation further improved that situation by allowing people to live in a more dispersed environment, thereby mitigating the dangers of contagion. Thus, the principal source of improvement in our species' life expectancy at the turn of the twentieth century was not medical advances; it was technological advances that shaped our environment so that it was more in tune with our evolutionary past.

It was, in short, not a "fountain of youth," or a drug, or an exercise, or a supplement that significantly enhanced our species' mortality rate. The secret formula boiled down to the distance we could put between ourselves and contagious disease; combined with laborsaving technology and other advances, it enabled our life expectancy to soar over the past century. To some extent, there have been advances in medicine, but advances in medicine in terms of life expectancy pale in comparison with advances in engineering. Those advances improved our life expectancy much more than medicine ever could. And, as we've seen, attempting to run a marathon or become "ultrafit" may not be the answer either.


-- Little, John R; McGuff, Doug (2009-01-09). Body by Science (Kindle Locations 364-375). McGraw-Hill. Kindle Edition.

Would the original poster cite these as "commonality" arguments for infrastructures better handled as public works than as private ones?

Post 7

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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Her comment is consistent with my sentiments. I had written a much longer introduction where I acknowledge that I only know of Rand's work from second hand sources. I've seen interviews, I know the outlines of her life, and I did the equivalent of post graduate work attending for several years Victor Niederhoffer's Junto. To speak up at this crowd you better have done your homework.

It was stimulating, and challenging, but all groups become intellectually ingrown, it's inherent at a level that we can't overcome. The struggle to transcend this is ongoing.

This is why I value the work of F. A. Hayek over Rand, as he did not seem to covet the personal adulation of followers. How many people know that he accepted a social safety net, including health care for those who couldn't afford it.



Post 8

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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I'm a little embarrassed pointing this out to someone who's done the equivalent of postgraduate work, but the test of an idea is whether or not it's true, not what you think (correctly or not) of its inventor's psychology.

How many people know that Hayek accepted the social (i.e. government) safety net?  I can't give you a hard number, but I've known it for most of my life, and so did Rand.  If your question is a rhetorical way of saying that he's right about this and Rand is wrong, let's hear your argument.

Do you consider RoR an example of a group that's become intellectually ingrown?


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Post 9

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 6:29pmSanction this postReply
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It is my belief that one should actually read her books and essays before attempting to argue the validity of her works or your preference for anothers if you want to be taken seriously...just sayin..

Post 10

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Focus on the individual distorts the nature of humans, as a species. We are a social animal, and interaction, companionship, sexual satisfaction, all is part of this picture.

As such we form groups, bands, tribes, and states....all of which take something away from the ability to thrive alone. This is an ongoing challenge for every society, and it's worth looking at from every angle.

Ayn Rand saw the horrors of Communism, and she saw this as the ultimate evil. So she idealized the individual who would live a life eschewing any acknowledgement of the need for group interaction, and with it accommodation and sacrifice of some liberty.

I realize this is a site that honors Rand, and it's silly for me to focus on my differing views. There are excesses of state control, and I am aware of some that are not on most people's radar, like the new FAIR act that will limit teaching in California.

It was an unholy compromise between the left and the right, with no one arguing the value of honest exploration of the consequences of various group ideology.....not if one of them is under the protection of one of the two dominant parties.

I don't mean to be cryptic, but it's too much to introduce in a comment.

Post 11

Friday, November 25, 2011 - 6:26pmSanction this postReply
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Interesting quote. I've long been aware that it's the category of public health...pure water, less pollution,childhood vaccines, engineering safer modes of transportation....that have increased life span more than the contributions of Medicine.

The question of public or private funding for these improvements is what you are raising. Let me give you my general thinking on this, and hope it gets close to answering your question.

The free market is not the only way to allocate scarce resources, it's the best way but only under a given set of conditions. F.A. Hayek, (he's my touchstone for this site) was in favor of a command economy under one condition, when a country was at war. Of course he never anticipated a permanent one, like our War on Terror.

Allocating medical care is often removed from the market economy in times of crisis, which at that point a different principle, that of triage take precedence. BTW, I was against the Affordable Health Care act, and said so on Democratic Dailykos in a dozen or so diaries.

I do believe in a public sphere, the appropriateness of it for certain services like the interstate highway system, public education, a certain level of medical care, and the administration of justice.

Ron Paul, with all his limitations, was the only person among the candidates who clearly understood that freedom from government control is a value that must be weighed against danger of harm by terrorists.





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Post 12

Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 12:14amSanction this postReply
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Al,

Boy, you need to do your homework. You have a very distorted understanding of Rand's philosophy. It appears as though you haven't read any of her writings. For example, Rand's focus on the individual is a focus on individual talent, individual responsibility and individual rights. She is not against social interaction, social companionship or sexual satisfaction. Far from it. The free market itself is a model of cooperative interaction among individual producers, but observe that it is voluntary, uncoerced cooperation in which people exchange goods and services by mutual consent to mutual advantage. The alternative is one in which some people have control over other people's lives -- in which some people are subservient to others, enslaved to others and sacrificed to others. Is that what you consider preferable to individualism -- to individual rights and individual responsibility?

Rand was opposed to collectivism, meaning that she was opposed to subordinating the individual to the collective -- to making the individual's decisions subservient to the will of whoever claims to be acting on behalf of the collective.

As for Hayek's "safety net," it is, as you know, a coercively enforced safety net, in which the government robs Peter to bail out Paul. Is this something you support? If you do, then you don't believe in individual rights -- in the right of each individual to act on his own judgment. Rather, you believe that some people have the right to dictate the actions of others and should be in charge of other people's lives.


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Post 13

Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 12:32amSanction this postReply
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Well said Bill.
I would like to add what gives the collective the right to rob me of values produced by my labors and my mind because I have the ability the drive and the ambition to raise myself above what that same collective deems to be above my station and hand it over to someone that did not earn it does not deserve it and demands it solely based upon his percieved need.

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Post 14

Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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Al Rodbell said:
Focus on the individual distorts the nature of humans, as a species. We are a social animal, and interaction, companionship, sexual satisfaction, all is part of this picture.
Calling a human being a "social animal" is a distortion of the nature of the species.  There is a third alternative to the classic "individual vs. social" dichotomy that you are stuck on.  Here is a short excerpt from Ayn Rand's book, Capitalism:  The Unknown Ideal which may help illuminate it for you:

Man gains enormous values from dealing with other men; living in a human society is his proper way of life—but only on certain conditions. Man is not a lone wolf and he is not a social animal. He is a contractual animal. He has to plan his life long-range, make his own choices, and deal with other men by voluntary agreement (and he has to be able to rely on their observance of the agreements they entered).
Collectivists who aspire to help mankind achieve the status of "social animal" must have an exceedingly poor understanding of what a social animal actually is.  Social animals instinctively sacrifice themselves for the good of the dominant members of their group.  Within the framework of any "progressive" collectivist system, it is assumed that all people will be treated equally, with those most able providing for those who are most needy.  Social animals don't practice any such form of egalitarianism.  Social pack animals, such as wolves, dogs, and even meercats, all conform to a social structure where the lower strata of "society" are not allowed to perform any basic functions such as eating or breeding without the "permission" of the society's strongest members. An alpha dog or wolf will even determine whether a subordinate must remain standing or is allowed to lie down.  Social animals that tend toward herd behavior survive predation by pushing their weakest adult members to the edge of the herd as a sacrifice to protect the strongest members.  While humans have occasionally been known to behave in similar fashion to a pack of wolves or a flock of sheep, such is not our ideal condition.  We are not social animals. 

Our intelligence and capacity to use reason puts us in a unique category among all known existing life forms.  We benefit greatly from participation in society, but only when that society is one that doesn't seek to limit the potential of any individual member and only when no individual member attempts to impose his will on any other individual.  That is the essence of a human's "social responsibility" - to abstain from enslaving other humans.  A dog doesn't mind letting a stronger pack member tell it when its allowed to eat, breed, or rest.  It's instincts might prompt it to fight to gain dominance, but once it fails it will be quite content in its submissive role.  It's instincts cause it to  behave that way, and it can't form an objection because it can't even think!  When humans give up their unique ability to think - when they allow another person to do the thinking and impose his will upon them, they do not achieve an enlightened state of "social animal" bliss.  Rather, they lower themselves to the level of a true social animal.  The same can be said for the "great leader" who attempts to impose his own will on other people.  He too is giving up the benefits of a true human society and lowering himself to the level of an alpha dog. 

The nature of humans is such that we are designed to survive by thinking and deciding.  A society can't think; only an individual can do that.  Still, humans gain much from trading with other humans and from the protection that a group of humans can provide when some common criminal or some "great leader" attempts to impose his own will by force (force, theft and fraud being the only ways possible to impose your will on another human being). This leads us to a condition where, just as Ayn Rand points out, it is incumbent on man to form and participate in a society if he wants to succeed, but only to the extent that the society doesn't cause exactly the harm that it is supposed to prevent.  Participation in the society must be voluntary, not coercive.  Relationships between men must be consensual, which could also be phrased "contractual." 


Post 15

Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Al, you wrote:
Ayn Rand saw the horrors of Communism, and she saw this as the ultimate evil. So she idealized the individual who would live a life eschewing any acknowledgement of the need for group interaction, and with it accommodation and sacrifice of some liberty.
Actually, it is a bit presumptuous to claim to read Rand's mind and say you know why she idealized the individual. But the larger error is where you totally misunderstand Rand's view of individualism. She loved the product of human interaction under free enterprise and she articulated a system that permitted accommodation and interaction without any loss of liberty.

Bill's post, #12, gives you the best insight for this discussion.

Post 16

Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Like I said, Al, welcome to RoR.

:-)

Ed


Post 17

Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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The following is a response to Peter Reidy:

http://youtu.be/hQrr_CgdBZA


Is Ron Paul an anti-American racist? Combine neo-con views on American military hegemony with leftist views on being politically correct when discussing race and you get an Objectivist's odd objections to voting for Ron Paul for president.


Post 18

Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I'm hoping that you are having a problem with this character (Trun) using RoR to pimp his positions on YouTube and making references to RoR and to members here in his YouTube rants.

These posts are in Dissent, as they should be, but when he posts them to YouTube he is trashing the purpose of the dissent area, as well as the privacy of those who post here.

If he won't respect our wishes to not be a part of his peculiar political agenda, then, if it were up to me, I'd keep him out of here... but that's just me.

Post 19

Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Troone:

You mispronounced my name.

(Edited by Peter Reidy on 12/10, 5:26pm)


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