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Post 40

Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 3:47pmSanction this postReply
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The Constitution doesn't grant or make rights. HC is a right because no one has any right or business holding you without charge outside an appropriate legal system. HC is a court demanding your presence.

--Brant

One of the most evil aspects of the current U.S. administration has been the implicit or explicit assumption the rights are granted by the state, and therefore may be delimited by the same, without any recourse.  This has shown up in various contexts, such as the claim that foreign detainees have no rights under the constitution and therefore may be held incommunicado, tortured or "rendered," that American citizens can be held similarly without charges indefinitely on the simple claim that they are "enemy combatants" by the executive branch, or a remark, quoted from Bush before 9/11, I believe, to the effect that he wasn't sure that atheists had any rights in the U.S.

Today's Digital Village - www.digitalvillage.org - featured Caroline Fredrickson , of the ACLU, on FISATalk about a return to the medieval...

The FISA court, which is supposed to provide judicial oversight to wiretapping by the executive branch after the Nixon scandals, has no address.  If you do manage to find their phone number, which is virtually impossible to begin with, they answer "fourth floor," not FISA.  When they rule on a request, there is no opposing party allowed, and the records of the arguments as well as the request itself are permanently sealed. 
Not surprising, they have only denied 10 requests, out of tens of thousands, even though, in retrospect, leaks and investigations have revealed Justice using wiretapping for purposes far afield from the alleged legal purpose.  The point of today's show, however, which should soon be available at the DV site above, was that the new FISA bill is even worse, allowing wiretaps on any call that might involve a foreign switcher, for example, as in placing a call to Alaska, that is routed through Canada, as well as allowing "class authorizations," in which anyone defined as a member of a broadly defined class may come under authorization.

As I've pointed out before, the uses of these new powers is always going to be restricted to real cases of terrorists, or so the proponents allege.  A quick look at the Anthony L. Hargis & Co. case completely give the lie to that claim. 


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Post 41

Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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"The Constitution doesn't grant or make rights."

Okay, then. So what does? Your argument? There is a distinction between natural (i.e., nature-al) rights - the ideal which men should have according to their nature - and civil rights established under a civil jurisdiction. Without a government to secure our rights we have mere words. (This is just the anarchist fallacy in another variant. Just as we have a natural right to self defense, we do not have a right to vigilante justice. Rights exist and only exist in a context.) The charter of our government is the Constitution. It enumerates some of our rights and gives the rules by which the civil authority protects them. The failure to distinguish between natural right and civil right is intrinsicism.

The Constitution is limited in scope. (Any possible government is limited in scope.) It does not grant rights to non-resident non-citizens. Foreign combatants do have rights under the Constitution, whose clause establishing treaties as the supreme law of the land protects them under the Geneva Convention, to which we are signatories. It doesn't extend to unlawful combatants. Those who think words, or ideals, and not the Constitution and the actual government, protect their rights are like the fat corrupt businessman of the James Bond movie on the uncharted south-seas island who tell their suddenly hostile foreign mafia hosts "You can't feed me to the shark! I've got rights!" Even terrorists have a better grip on reality than that.

We don't pay taxes to protect our enemies or wage war so as to safeguard their interests. Foreigners who wish to visit for peaceful purposes apply for visas. Unlawful combatants who attack us outside the protections of the Constitution forgo our protections. For our own purposes we establish rules to govern our own actions. We set up tribunals as appropriate in their circumstances to govern our own actions, something just as authorized by the Constitution as are our courts. To say that a military tribunal cannot make judgments of a combatant's status because it is not an "independent" authority is to deny that any domestic authority, court or otherwise, can oversee such activities because any American court is still American. To whom, then, would we submit our actions to "independent" review? The UN? Courts, as opposed to tribunals, are not magical conduits into The-Realm-of-Justice. Courts are a formal device we use to protect ourselves. Unlawful foreign combatants are not ourselves.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 7/12, 7:59pm)


Post 42

Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 7:04amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I fully agree with your first paragraph in the post above (#41).  I feel like I've been beating that same drum till I'm deaf: Do NOT confuse natural rights ("ethical rights" has been my phrase) with civil rights ("legal rights" in my posts). 

And yes, government is finite and laws apply to jurisdictions.

And I agree with the need to protect ourselves, I have no problem with the concept of military tribunals, and I would never advocate surrender of one iota of sovernty to the UN. 

After that I disagree on a few points.

Part of this argument isn't about who has what civil right.  It is about what power should the government be allowed to exercise.  The alternative would be to say that if someone falls outside of jurisdiction that it is just for the government to do anything - that would justify any act against any foriegn nation in any country.

The purpose of the constitution is to protect individuals from our government assuming powers that violate natural rights.  It does it by specifying what powers government can have towards that end.  A person who has been imprisoned can NOT be an "unlawful combatant" without some kind of mechanism being exercised by the government to establish that they meet the definition of combatant (a determination of fact) - after that procedure the detainee can be an "unlawful combatant" and the detention is a justified exercise of government power. 

I would not argue against military tribunals - when honorable men operate a mechanism created with some built-in safeguards (like openness, review and an adversarial structure) there is no reason to believe that justice won't be a probable result.  The specifics of the mechanism are details and should arise from the context.  The heart of Habeas Corpus is that there be sufficient mechanism.  That does not imply a criminal court hearing with all of the same rules that would be approriate for, say, a New York City Juvenile Court hearing a case against a 17 year old that killed a 7/11 clerk).  What is called for is enough of a mechanism to keep government from breaking out of constitutional intentions.  It has nothing to do with citizenship or where the person was scooped up - it is partly about the individual (New York kid or detainee from Iraq) and it is partly about making sure our government never exercises power that violates rights rather than defend them.  Governments are slippery things always trying to evolve themselves into structures and laws that increase their power. 

Your other argument about it being government that is protecting us, not words or ideals, needs looking at.  If a person's rights are under threat, the lowest and most immediate level of defense is the in the concrete, literal act of protection (cop with a gun stops hold up, soldier with a gun kills enemy on the battlefield, judge in a court defends a petitioner being wronged, etc.).  And it's true that these actual protections are there because they are of the government, and that the government is there because of the constitution - but ideals and the words (i.e., expressed concepts) are the true source for the constitution. 

Errors exist among much of what is good in the constitution, the government, the current laws, etc.  It is to ideals (and the words that express them) that we must turn to judge what should be.  That is what I'm arguing here - not applications of this or that law or treaty - but that throwing out Habeas Corpus does great harm.  I am saying that our best and highest priority (in this argument) is defense of the ideal that is threatened by the loss of Habeas Corpus as a principle.


Post 43

Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 1:04pmSanction this postReply
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I am confused as to why everyone here seems so confused about the concept of "rights."  It seems that the same ground is covered again and again in the same or different threads. 

I thought that Rand did a pretty good job in defining what is meant by a "right," although it certainly could be expanded and clarified. 

Paraphrasing and summarizing:  To say that one has a "right," is to say that one may ethically and morally prohibit, by the use of a rationally justified degree of force, if necessary, someone else from interfering with one's action in a given context.  All rights start with the right to one's life qua human being, and start with the right to one's physical functioning body and the actions necessary to sustain it.  I.e., one may morally and ethically prohibit someone else from directly killing or injuring one, for starters. 

Other derivative rights, such as the right to property, follow from the "actions necessary to sustain it."  Because long-term action involving stable physical and intellectual assets is essential for life as a human being, especially in a modern context, we have developed an intellectual infrastructure to secure rights to those assets, such as land or other physical or intellectual properties. 

In a primitive context, this might be the exclusive right to use a bunch of rocks to build a dam on a stream.  Once one has announced or otherwise indicated that one is going to use the rocks for a particular purpose and has spent energy in doing so, then, ceteris paribus, no one else has the right to start breaking up the dam to use the rocks for his house. 

This simple example can only be carried so far.  Suppose multiple people all have conflicting plans for the rocks?  Who decides and how?  As more people use more and more scarce resources, the primitive model, reflecting a relative abundance of unused potential property, has to give way to a rational allocation of resources that everyone can see is inherently fair.  The model then becomes more that of a O-Neil colony (for simplification), where virtually everything is owned by the entity that owns the colony itself.

In that case, with a lack of outside, unclaimed resources, the proprietor would seek a fair and reasonable way to get the most profits from the use of those scarce resources.  Since top-down management has its own problems of information corruption, due to positive feedback, just for one example, the most likely general mechanism in most cases would be a public auction for original property claims, with the procedes going to the proprietor.  If the proprietor were a share-holding entity, such as the Mondragon Cooperative, then the procedes would go to the shareholders.

But I digress.  The bottom line is that the relationships among people are objective facts.  They have a particular identity.  For these relationships to work over time among people in a society, they must satisfy certain base criteria.  Among these criteria are a definition of what actions are inherently permisable and which are not.  The concept of rights starts with the individual interests and creates a conceptual bridge to the collective by specifying what kind of rules can be justified.  The particulars of the rules may vary from society to society, such as what kind of judicial procedures can be considered valid.  Whatever those particular procedures are, however, they must still satisfy the original criteria spelled out by the concept of human "rights."

The devil is in the details, of course.


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Post 44

Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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Men institute government to secure rights, not create them. Rights are "created" by moral-intellectual philosophy based on man's needs according to his volitional, cognitive, productive nature. That's the "natural" in "natural rights." When the Constitution was drafted some objected to a bill of rights because they were afraid some people would get the idea that the rights mentioned were all the rights that government would then protect. So that too was covered in "The Bill of Rights." The Constitution covered only the Federal Government until rights were extended to all Americans generally after the Civil War. That's why the rights mentioned in the Constitution had no effect on slavery whatsoever until then. I believe the 14th Amendment did that. "States rights" were all but obliterated in favor of individual rights thoughout the U.S. and its legal jurisdictions.

--Brant


Post 45

Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Ted.  Remember that what we are doing here is trying to defend ourselves from harm by enemies that do not play by the rules.  So the question is how much do we owe ourselves to making sure we are right in whom we may imprison and how far to we ourselves wish to go in defending ourselves.  I think that we have been quite reasonable and I am satisfied.  I do not want us tied from being effective, either.

Steve wrote:  Part of this argument isn't about who has what civil right.  It is about what power should the government be allowed to exercise.  The alternative would be to say that if someone falls outside of jurisdiction that it is just for the government to do anything - that would justify any act against any foriegn nation in any country.
 
False alternative - it would justify what we choose to allow based on rational self-defense, and this is within that realm.  Remember, throughout history non-uniformed enemy spies and saboteurs were and are subject to summary execution.  We may wish to bring that back to any enemy which does not wear a uniform and which uses civilians to hide.  They deserve it.


 


Post 46

Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

I have no problem at all with executing those who ARE terrorists, spies during times of war, or combatants that hide among the population wearing no uniform.  They lost their rights when they chose those actions.

I do object to the government doing either extended detentions or executions of innocent people - and that's what everyone is until some kind of appropriate procedure is held (military tribunal for example - if done right).  As soon as a procedure establishes that they are in fact a terrorist or spy, we can detain or execute them.  Giving the government the right to detain and kill with NO evidentiary procedure at all is a massive destruction of the American approach to justice, our legal protections, and the major restraint on abusive government power.

"Summary execution" means killing someone without any meaningful inquiry, investigation or legal proceeding.  If that is a policy of the government with respect to people already detained (i.e., no immediate threat), it means the government can kill someone without any evidence what-so-ever.  You can't get any more totalitarian than that.


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