About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi, I'm Jim, I'm new here, and reasonably new to Objectivism in general (although hardly new to philosophy, economics, or the liberty movement).

In the spirit of engaging in debate with (hopefully) intelligent people, I shall pull one of my objections/questions about Rand's philosophy out of a hat, as it were, and present it to you:

If I understand correctly, one of Rand's dictums is that altruism is evil. Well then, what about the sociobiological contention that there is in fact no such thing as altruism? How does that jibe?

Post 1

Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Jim,

If "there's no such thing as altruism" implies that "everyone is selfish," then you might want to visit The Virtue of Selfishness, wherein Nathaniel Branden argues against such a contention in an essay titled, "Isn't Everyon Selfish?"

Basically, Branden says going after what you want doesn't necessarily make you selfish because those wants might well be motivated by a concern to benefit others over you, which according to Objectivism, is what altruism is all about. Branden further contends that putting a gloss on all actions as ultimately selfish is a relic of mysticism.

It's a short essay. You might just want to read it for a more fleshed out answer.  

Jordan


Post 2

Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 8:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Of course, it's in a book, not available online. Right? Sigh. I hate waiting.

Post 3

Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 10:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim Syler wrote: If I understand correctly, one of Rand's dictums is that altruism is evil. Well then, what about the sociobiological contention that there is in fact no such thing as altruism? How does that jibe?
Richard Dawkins in The Selfish Gene says that he would sacrifice himself to save eight cousins.  I would not.  I put myself above 256 cousins and 1024 siblings.  Sociobiology is assumes huge numbers of "people" who are not individuals. 

I heard about a college psychology class that conditioned their professor.  Every time he touched his hand to his throat, they sat up and paid attention. In a few weeks, he lectured with his hand to his throat.  Then someone told him and he quit.

Sociobiology is like that.  As long as the actors are ignorant, it works.  Once you have an informed and rational being of volitional consciousness for a subject, predictions are impossible.

Altruism is evil because it requires your sacrifice.  In the first place, condemning altruism as evil is independent of any putative "higher" goal.  In the second place, the means and ends are not arbitrary, but causal.  Therefore, you cannot achive a good end via an evil means and evil means always result in evil ends.


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Monday, April 23, 2007 - 2:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Of course, it's in a book, not available online. Right? Sigh. I hate waiting.
On the bright side it's only about $8 at Barnes & Noble.

Post 5

Monday, April 23, 2007 - 10:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jim,

It's true that, in the animal world, there is no such thing as an unreciprocating, non-kin altruism.

But, with the advent of 'modern' philosophy -- e.g., Kant, Hegel, Comte (who coined the term: 'altruism'), and Marx -- altruism can now exist among men; though it's always dependent, actually parasitic, on some agents acting in their rational self-interest. Here are the necessary ingredients for altruism among men.

1) Wealth has to first be built up (by independent, rational agents)
2) Esteem has to be brought down (by a philosophy espousing the idea that you don't even have the right to exist for your own sake)
3) A critical mass has to philosophically buy-in to the "no right to be here" notion (i.e., that it's solely the need of others that justifies your life on earth)

If any of these steps are missed, then altruism won't ensue. Unfortunately, in the 20th Century, none of these steps were missed -- and we had over 100 million unnecessarily-premature deaths. This history of deaths (from an adopted altruistic ethics) runs roughshod over any sociobiological data you can muster to the contrary. In this last century, philosophy has trumped biology as the main determinate factor dictating the kinds of lives men lead.

Have I answered your question adequately?

;-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/23, 10:39pm)


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.