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Friday, November 17, 2006 - 1:09amSanction this postReply
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Greetings and salutations, as it were.

I've been a philosophical layman for quite a long time; my first encounter with philosophy was Camus' The Stranger. I generally prefer Continental philosophy to the Analytical, and my favorite authors are Jaspers, Camus, Kierkegaard, Stirner, Foucault, Bataille, and especially Friedrich Nietzsche.

I first encountered Ayn Rand earlier this year, when I read through The Fountainhead at school. Several friends of mine had commented on it, and recommended to me. I read it and was rather impressed (though most of my on-line friends regard her as nothing more than a pop-philosopher in the vein of Anton LaVey), and I began to puruse her non-fictional works.

I must say that my first impression of her was quite mistaken. Though I detected a strong Nietzschean undertone in The Fountainhead, it quickly became apparent to me that her devotion to an objective morality suitable for all was untenable when one considers her own anti-egalitarian, rationalist, and egoist worldview. The same criticisms one can level at the Christian ethos are just as applicable when considered against Objectivism: what universal vantage point has Ayn Rand discovered which allows her to view with clarity whatever moral imperatives exist? Immanuel Kant thought that he knew the moral world order; he was mistaken, and philosophers ever since his time have made every effort to excuse him for this mistake. Why should it be any different with Rand?

For instance, it was a social norm amongst the Spartans to leave infants on desolate mountainsides in a sort of prototypical form of Social Darwinism. It was thought that only the hardy would survive and become fierce warriors capable of waging war for the poli. If I were an Objectivist, I would be forced to condemn an entire people simply because they felt it in their best interests to allow some infants to die to breed a stronger tribe (whether or not it actually worked is another question; all the same, one must admire them for their devotion to the

So, too, is her devotion to rationalism mistaken. The world of the senses is the world; a division between "apparent" and "true" is a Platonic (and, later, Christian) fallacy. This is something Max Stirner touches upon in The Ego and His Own (and I much prefer Stirner's egoism-at-any-cost to Rand's surrender to certain Christian concepts such as morality and the 'ideal man', which in truth would be man exactly as he is), as well as Nietzsche in Twilight of the Idols: if the world as I perceive it is different from yours, why should I accept your authority to tell me that I am wrong? Clearly we are both interested parties; logic is only the tool of a fundamentally irrational creature - man - which is used in an effort to make our perceptions more harmonious with each other and thereby ease our existence. There is nothing wrong with rationality as a tool; it is when it comes to be regarded as the metaphysical lynchpin of the universe that it works against us.

There is an aesthetic objection to Objectivism, as well. The Greeks of the age of Socrates produced many incredible works of art; however, as Nietzsche first noted, they are simply beautifully constructed, and evince marvelous technical ability. There is rarely any psychological element to the works of the classical age of the Greeks; by that time, the Dionysian spirit of tragedy had all but been vanquished from them by the ascension of the "tyranny of logic". The truly interesting Greek world is that of Dionysus - of the Bacchanalia and the mystery cults and the bull-gods of the Minoans. Socrates, who noted himself as being a man of almost violent passion, felt the need to place his emotions under the reign of something fundamentally anti-emotion -- logic. He negated himself, lest he harm himself and others. In doing so and by becoming influential, he did away with the satyric element of Greek art, and relegated the Homeric to the status of folktale rather than cultural epic.

I myself do not care for 'Romantic Realist' art. In fact, my taste tends towards Dadaism, the anti-art. Insofar as it is an expression of the cyclical nature of negation and valuation which constitutes human affairs, it has been unfortunately looked upon as some sort of sick joke, either born out of the cultural atmosphere of post-war Europe or viewed as simply a socialist reaction to monarchism and capitalism. And, true, there were some socialists who had a taste for the destructive - George Grosz is one example. However, as a cultural phenomenon, there has yet to be more authentic a form of art as Dadaism, which makes no claim to the 'ideal', but instead recognizes the world as precisely what it is: in the flux, constantly shifting, with every ideal and paradigm constantly being revaluated and negated in a ceaseless cycle of value-repositioning.

For those interested in an alternative egoist philosophy which discards notions such as 'objective morality' and the worship of logic as a metaphysical item, I strongly recommend this book - http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/stirner/theego1.html. I think you might enjoy its premise, even if you disagree with some or all of it.

Thank you for your time,
Dionysus, the philosophizing high school student.


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Friday, November 17, 2006 - 1:41amSanction this postReply
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Ah, and one other thing - I apologize if I've violated any forum rules against double-posting.

Being the Nietzschean I am, I actually don't believe in the concept of 'free-will', as I view the conscious self -- the 'I' each of us think of when we contemplate ourselves -- to be nothing more than a sort of focal point of the various psychological drives which dominate our identities. Everything we do serves some drive or another; in this sense, there is no 'free-will', as the 'conscious will' itself is simply one small piece of the human puzzle, and might be regarded as a drive itself in some instances. I also reject the Christian-Enlightenment view of the self as a single, immutable entity, with transparent and knowable motivations capable of intelligent self-reflection. 

And so, while it seems we have many differences, we are close enough in thought to get along cordially, I feel.


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Post 2

Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Ingram

I must say that your reference to LaVey made me laugh!

I'd suggest you read her explicitly worked out arguments, especially as found in Intro. To Obj. Epistemology and The Virtue of Selfishness (assuming you haven't) rather than trying to extract her philosophy from her fiction.

Her objective morality is not based on duty or any command, but on the conditional statement that if you wish to live a happy life then you must act in accordance with your nature and accept the facts of reality which cannot be changed and chose which facts of reality (like your country of residence, choice of career) which are open to you to optimize in an integrated way. Nor does Rand say that happiness is available only to the ideal man, rather, that each man can be happy by living up to his own nature. Her art focuses on the ideal, since she sees art as something which, as it is optional, should also be optimal. That is, what are the motivations of a person who could be looking at Michaelangelo, but chooses to look at Magritte instead? What is that person's view of man and man's potential?

And as for free will, she does not hold to the radical voluntarism of the existentialists. She identifies the freedom of the will with the "choice" of whether to expend effort in trying to understand or not, or trying to evade understanding or not. She does not hold that we can access the underlying mechanisms of the mind and thus choose simply anything. She does not hold that choice is separate from the body. She holds that just as entities don't have attributes, but are the totality of their attributes, men don't have bodies and have minds, but that men are bodies and that minds are attributes of certain types of bodies.

Rand was closer to Nietzsche in her youth, but drew back from the kill or be killed view of ethics to a neither kill nor be killed view.

I suggest you read the non-fiction books I recommended, as well as the Romantic Manifesto. Then we will have common ground to communicate further if you wish.

Ted
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 11/17, 11:10am)

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 11/17, 4:45pm)


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Friday, November 17, 2006 - 6:38pmSanction this postReply
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Post 2

Friday, November 17 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Ingram

I must say that your reference to LaVey made me laugh!

I'd suggest you read her explicitly worked out arguments, especially as found in Intro. To Obj. Epistemology and The Virtue of Selfishness rather than trying to extract it from her fiction.

Her objective morality is not based on duty or any command, but on the conditional statement that if you wish to live a happy life then you must act in accordance with your nature and accept the facts of reality which cannot be changed and chose which facts of reality (like your country of residence, choice of career) which are open to you to optimize in an integrated way. She does not say that happiness is available only to the ideal man, rather, that each man can be happy by living up to his own nature. Her art focuses on the ideal, since she sees art as something which, as it is optional, should also be optimal. That is, what are the motivations of a person who could be looking at Michaelangelo, but chooses to look at Magritte instead? What is that person's view of man and man's potential?
It's certainly an understandable morality, and one that I might identify with if I believed in morality. However, it seems to be that Rand stated her morality in the form of an imperative - that is, that man must live life according to his nature, or else he is committing an immorality. Naturally, that's simply my interpretation of it, and I'm by no means well-read on her philosophy. I, on the other hand, believe that it is impossible for any animal, including man, to do anything but live out his nature, and so morality has nothing at all to do with it.

Further, is does not follow that reason is anything more than another psychological drive whose purpose is to ensure not only our continued survival, but our continued accumulation of power (power in the sense of increasing mastery both within and without our bodies - the Will to Power). Reason, when used as a tool, is fine; it is when it becomes enshrined as some sort of sacred metaphysical principle which governs

And art, rather than being an expression of an ideal, might instead be the expression of what is. If the ideal is equivalent to what actually is, then it seems to me that art, rather than showcasing a goal for all men to aspire to, should instead present to us an image of the various processes which make up human existence. This is why I prefer Dadaism, the anti-art: because it reflects the ongoing process of revaluation innate to the human experience. There are no longer any fixed ideas, because we have debunked all of them - and it thus follows that art, if it is going to be a presentation of what exists now, ought to reflect this process of Nietzschean destruktion and revaluation. Dada is thus far the only form of art to come close to recreating in a physical form the transvaluation of values which has been ongoing in Western society since the end of the First World War. This is the essence of the tragedic spirit in art, which is concerned not with law and order and light, but with chaos and change and affirmation in the face of uncertainty. For such an artform to have arisen required a catastrophe of monumental proportions - the First World War, which created in Europe a sort of celebratory atmosphere in the face of apocalyptic destruction.

My critique of the Objectivist aesthetic, of course, relies again on Nietzsche, and it is probably a weakness of mine that I am well-versed in only a few philosophers (Nietzsche, Foucault, Bataille, Derrida, Stirner, Camus, and to a lesser extent Sartre and Schopenhauer). With that out of the way, let me begin.

In his first book, The Birth of Tragedy, Nietzsche divides the arts into two general expressions: the Apollonian and the Dionysian, as you probably know. The Apollonian is the expression of illusion - all plastic arts and idealistic artforms are Apollonian, as well as the dream-state. The Dionysian, on the other hand, is purely expressivist, and includes in its ranks music (particularly the chorus) and other forms of arts which, rather than expressing an external idea independent of the artist, instead reveals his inner creative atmosphere. The Apollonian is associated with tranquility and dreams, whereas the Dionysian is passionate and intoxicated. I view Romantic Realism as a surrender to the Apollonian, which regards the ideal and the virtuous as the highest order of expression, rather than a Dionysian movement, which would celebrate man and life precisely as they are.

This is keeping in the general spirit of Nietzsche, who regarded all ideals and "oughts" as little more than abstractions which not only were philosophically unsound (upon what firm, non-subjective foundations do these ideals rest?), but as fundamentally harmful to life.

And as for free will, she does not hold to the radical voluntarism of the existentialists. She identifies the freedom of the will with the "choice" of whether to expend effort in trying to understand or not, or trying to evade understanding or not. She does not hold that we can access the underlying mechanisms of the mind and thus choose anything. She does not hold that choice is separate from the body. She holds that just as entities don't just have attributes, but are the totality of their attributes, men don't have bodies and have minds, but that men are bodies and that minds are attributes of certain types of bodies.
Which, again, is something I agree with - this seems to be a repitition of the Nietzschean concept of the physiological type (i.e. the priestly and the aristocratic-knightly types discussed at length in the opening chapters of The Geneaology). Our minds are not only inseperable from our bodies, but in fact are simply one aspect of our bodies. However, one should always beware of concieving of the mind as a static and immutable entity - Freud made the mistake of positing a single, fundamental drive at the center of the psyche, and in doing so did little to help destroy the Enlightenment self-conceptualization of it. Rather, one might instead concieve of it as a multiplicity of drives, each one attempting to gain primacy over the self at the expense of all of the others.

Our differences are, of course, more aesthetic than anything else. Our only real point of contention is in the area of truth, which I - of course, in keeping with Nietzsche - regard as simply a lingual convention (his famous example of "leaf", which is simply a generalization for individual leaves which are different in form from each other, applies here). To observe truth independent of all subjectivity would require a God's-eye vantage point which simply does not exist in our world. 

Many of our differences are the result of bad language. We agree that the world objectively exists independent of our perceptions of it, and that our freedom is limited by our genetics, our psychological constitution, our society, and many other things. In this sense, I am hardly an existentialist; I hold much more with the postmodernists and (especially) the anti-foundationalists. Where we disagree is at the ideal: I reject all ideals as subjective, and consider them to be baseless and harmful to a life of self-affirmation. Further, I tend to downplay the importance of rationality, viewing it as a tool to be used pragmatically in the service of life rather than as something to be valued independently of man. And, of course, I view it as a secondary attribute, not as important as spontaneity and self-esteem. It's odd that we accept so many of the fundamental things and draw radically different conclusions from them.


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Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:16pmSanction this postReply
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Rand did [appear to] waver between conditional and imperative formulations of morality. As an artist who thought in terms of ideals this is understandable. She never did write anything but short essay articles on philosophy, so there is no authoritative treatise. She should have been more consistent if she didn't want to be misinterpreted.

If find your statement that art "might instead be the expression of what is" combined with your assertion that you are "anti-art" ironic.

I don't think we disagree at all in philosophy, because if we were to meet and I were to draw a gun on you, I doubt you would not flinch.

You are too smart to waste time writing such essays as these if you really haven't read Rand's non-fiction works. I don't wish to be a distraction, so until you write about or question me on the books I suggested before, I shall remain silent.

Ted

edited in concession to Bill below
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 11/18, 5:30pm)


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Post 5

Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote,
Rand did waver between conditional and imperative formulations of morality.
She may have appeared to, but I think she viewed morality ultimately as a conditional imperative, given her opposition to Kant's categorical imperative amd her essay "Causality versus Duty," in which she explicitly condemns an ethics of duty and argues that you ought to value the means only if you value the end. Accordingly, I would say that her morality was through and through conditional. If you want such and such, then (and only then) "should" you do such and such. If you want to live a happy life, then you should (ought, must) act in accordance with the facts of reality that make that possible. One of those facts is, of course, your nature as a rational animal. According to her, morality simply prescribes the means (i.e., the causes that need to be enacted) in order to achieve the end

Now it is true that she held happiness to be an unconditional value -- that which man by his nature values for its own sake. But that doesn't mean the morality, according to her, didn't depend on an end or a value for the sake of which one "needs" to take certain actions enabling one to achieve it. Morality is simply a means to an end. To say "I ought to do X" simply says that X is the means to Y. That's all it means and that's all it ever could mean. Any other formulation, like Kant's categorical imperative makes no sense, because it is a floating abstraction that can't be grounded in any fundamental facts of reality or of human nature.

- Bill

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Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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There was one other thing I wished to discuss, and I apologize in advance if this has been talked about before.

I have browsed this forum (and the MySpace Objectivist forum), and I see a great deal of discussion about "human rights", which, I suppose, shouldn't surprise me, given the Libertarian bent of Objectivist political philosophy. Naturally, being Nietzschean, I feel it is my duty to call into question the very existence of such abstractions as "human rights".

Whenever we discuss rights in a social context, we almost invariably resort to refering to them as if they were a naturally occuring attribute of every human, as surely extant as his eyes or his ears and as much a part of what he is as a human being as his psychological character. I feel that this belief in "human rights", especially those chamiponed by the United Nations, is unfounded and is as spiritual as the Christian belief in the soul and almost certainly stems from the same slavish egalitarianism.

Again, I feel that this is simply the result of poor language and the unspoken implications of such wording. For instance, I feel that Jefferson made this same mistake when he suggested that all humans are endowed with "certain unalienable rights", which again implies that these rights are innate to the nature of man and are independent of lingual and social concerns. Insofar as we cannot test for "rights" any more than we can objectively confirm the existence of "the soul" (as both are posited by certain parties as being definite human traits present in all individuals from birth), it then follows that we should not regard "rights" as some sort of invisible organ present within man, or even as "objects" in the philosophical sense (that is, unchangable absolutes); rather, it is probably better to think of them as "wills", an active process of desiring to be treated in such-and-such a fashion which others agree to for whatever reason of their own. To recognize the "rights" of another individual, then, is to simply acknowledge how that individual wishes to be treated, and to accept his desire out of a need to, say, avoid future conflict, or simply to appease the egalitarian nature of the person or society recognizing his "rights".

The current row over the abortion debate would be quickly settled if my conceptualization of "human rights" were accepted, as it necessarily entails thinking, reflecting entities to give themselves rights, something the unborn are quite clearly incapable of doing. Of course, this seems to conflict with my total rejection of consciousness as an entity-in-itself as well, but that's a long and fairly tedious explanation that is perhaps left to another day and which would involve a discussion of various psychological motivations and the nature of the consciousness in relation to the subconsciousness.


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Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 9:57pmSanction this postReply
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Bah. Forgive me for posting so much and relying so much on Nietzsche; however, having read that Rand was influenced by him, I'm startled at how opposed the two seem to be to each other.

Nietzsche, as per On Truth and Lie in an Extra-Moral Sense, was a nominalist (which is why he is so attractive to postmodernists, in addition to his radical attacks on institutionalized, objective worldviews) - his famous example is his use of the word "leaf", which he states is merely a simplification used to describe a multitude of individual leaves with properties unique to each leaf. One leaf may appear to be more brown; another might have more veins; yet another may have a longer stem; and still another might have come from a different species of tree from the rest altogether.

In another thread just below this, several Objectivists... objected to nominalism, and seem to hold to a realist point of view, which contends that the classification "leaves", rather than being based upon a lingual convention created for expediency in conversation, is instead an accurate classification grounded in objective reality. The truth likely lies somewhere between; naturally, I'm quite biased towards Nietzsche's opinion on the topic.

I really don't have a point, and I'm probably becoming bothersome. I'm simply in the middle of what I suppose could be regarded as an 'existential crisis', and I'm attempting to hammer my own philosophy out by using various messageboards dedicated to different philosophies as foils.


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Post 8

Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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his famous example is his use of the word "leaf", which he states is merely a simplification used to describe a multitude of individual leaves with properties unique to each leaf. One leaf may appear to be more brown; another might have more veins; yet another may have a longer stem; and still another might have come from a different species of tree from the rest altogether.
It's called a concept, and the key is measurement omission. See Intro to Objectivist Epistemology if you're truly interested. It's not the word "leaf" that is important, but rather the definition. And regarding rights, see the first essay in The Virtue of Selfishness entitled "The Objectivist Ethics." You astutely note men do not physically posess rights. Rights are conceptual, but it is a valid concept nonetheless. According to Rand, rights can only exist because men have values, and the one thing all (living) men value, is life (otherwise they would be dead!) It is this common denominator that allows us to to recognize certain rights, ie conditions that are favorable to mans survival. So rights are conditional and conceptual, but not physical.


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