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Post 20

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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Joshua Zader wrote: "Since the Atlasphere is explicitly a community-building forum, intended to bring together people of like-minded values (rather than, say, advancing or enforcing particular ideological views as such) we will be taking a firm stance against the negative, judgmental tone that characterizes many Rand-related forums."

Fuck you.

 


Post 21

Thursday, December 1, 2005 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
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> the gradual introduction of forums ...All of our forums will be moderated in some fashion, and in the beginning they will be moderated heavily. [Joshua]

Joshua, both of these points sound eminently sane and sensible. It sounds like you have had time to observe Solo, Owl, Atlantis, etc. and see what works and what doesn't.

I have one suggestion re the introduction of forums and "niche marketing": Each Objectivist website serves a particular audience who are drawn to it, and if it changes significantly, they can easily go elsewhere. The most obvious difference (which I know you're aware of from remarks you've made elsewhere) between Atlasphere and Atlas Society on the one hand and Solo, the old wetheliving.com, Diana's blog on the other is that the second group attracts long-time Objectivists, while the first attracts fans of the novels and those who don't yet know what Objectivism is.

That's the largest group (just like sales of the novel vs. hardcore Objectivists) and that is why your site is the largest by an order of magnitude.

I believe that if you start trying to 'expand your membership' by serving the hardcore people, not only will you have the angry long-standing bitternesses and technical debates to deal with, far more importantly you will baffle people, especially in other countries where Rand's nonfiction is hard to come by but also in the U.S.

Here is a problem with introducing 'forums'. They tend, even if moderated, to get dominated by the most knowledgeable, most advanced, most go-for-the jugular types. I have seen this is campus and community clubs. The people with the most years of experience take over and they want to do the hardcore things, have the jargony discussions, etc. People tend to get impatient with the newbies and to reflect it in their posts.. "Haven't you read ITOE?" .. or in ignoring too elementary questions. Moreover, long time Objectivists love to argue, and even if moderated, the sharp elbows come out. But most humans even people who love Ayn Rand's novels (and that includes women, havlf the human race), don't enjoy sharp-edged arguments, or don't have that as the learning mode or style they are most comfortable with...And people who don't feel comfortable no matter the strength of their ideological leanings mostly don't stick around...there are too many other places they can go or other things they can do with their time.

But I suspect your audience *is* to a very large extent an elementary one and your site is good as it stands right now at gently and slowly and gradually introducing people to many new ideas.

Niche marketing means your products have to be tightly focused and when you leave the niche, you lose people. Wetheliving.com tried to have a lot of different forums for different levels of interest but that really didn't work. It's a headache and breeds confusion..and a fragmenting of audiences (special interest groups on education at wetheliving and at Solo that only attract two or three posters.) The Objectivist audience is not large enough, especially the quality audience, to fragment it.

And in your case, you already have the largest niche. There are millions of Ayn Rand fans. (And you have 8 thousand while Solo has 2 thousand.)

Moreover, there are a half dozen other sites that cater to the hardcore...or newbies who gradually become ready for the next step, including the brilliantly designed (albeit irascible) Solo site, the about to be redesigned TOC, the ARI, the Objectivism Reference Center.

You may have considered many of these things, but I wanted to focus the issue as sharply as I can.

My two cents...

Philip Coates

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Post 22

Thursday, December 1, 2005 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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Marotta,
Considering your view of ARI, your belief that values are subjective, etc, to say I'm surprised at your reaction would be putting it mildly. But mildly is where I'm going to leave it.

Phil,
Two minor points.
1) I'm sure your comments are well-informed and well meaning and you raise some valid points. Consider, though, that Joshua knows a lot about marketing and has been thinking on the issue for months or longer. I trust him to do it well.

2) "especially in other countries where Rand's nonfiction is hard to come by but also in the U.S.". I assume you mean, in translation. Which is true, but a very significant portion of those populations who are likely to be interested in the non-fiction read English. Often better than Americans. They would have no trouble getting the books in English through the web.


(Edited by Jeff Perren on 12/01, 1:06pm)


Post 23

Thursday, December 1, 2005 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

While Jeff's right that it's a subject I've thought about extensively, it's also a wildly complex undertaking, managing a community the size of the Atlasphere.

Your comments show a sensitive understanding of what the Atlasphere is about.

So thank you for your suggestions. Let me think about them a bit more before I offer a reply, if any.

Joshua

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Post 24

Thursday, December 1, 2005 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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Kat,

It is like blaming Yoko for breaking up the Beatles...
Oh...my...gawd!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, you dastardly vixen! You know she did it! ;-)


gw



Post 25

Thursday, December 1, 2005 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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Let's just all be glad that she did it!

Post 26

Thursday, December 1, 2005 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff Perren wrote: "Considering your view of ARI, your belief that values are subjective, etc, to say I'm surprised at your reaction would be putting it mildly."

I do not know that I have a "view" of the Ayn Rand Institute.  However, Post 20 stands on its own merits as being a "negative judgmental tone."  Perhaps a Smiley emoticon would have guided you to an appropriate response to my intentionally inappropriate response.

By the way, Post 20 earned me 21 Atlas Points in only four "bonks."


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Post 27

Friday, December 2, 2005 - 1:34pmSanction this postReply
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Michael:
Joshua Zader wrote: "Since the Atlasphere is explicitly a community-building forum, intended to bring together people of like-minded values (rather than, say, advancing or enforcing particular ideological views as such) we will be taking a firm stance against the negative, judgmental tone that characterizes many Rand-related forums."

Fuck you.

Where do you get off insulting Joshua for merely stating his policy for a new forum? If this board had a "poster-ignore" feature as many other board have, you'd be first on the list.

I had suggested to Linz before the split that it would be valuable if SOLOHQ were to re-instate un-sanction feature but it should then require the un-sanctioner to sacrifice the same amount of his own Atlas points. This would control the rampant inflation of Atlas points and un-sanctions would only be made when a post was really offensive.


Post 28

Friday, December 2, 2005 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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Sam, he was joking.

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Post 29

Friday, December 2, 2005 - 9:36pmSanction this postReply
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Phil Coates said to Sam Erica in re Michael Marotta: "Sam, he was joking."

Right, Sam, and* if you don't like it, you can go screw yourself!  :-)

REB

*continuing the mock judgmentalism (added for the benefit of those who didn't get it the first time :-)


Post 30

Friday, December 2, 2005 - 11:07pmSanction this postReply
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Fuck off, Roger

Post 31

Saturday, December 3, 2005 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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You guys all go f**k yourselves, k?

rde
Just lay back and think of pleasant thoughts when they do their dirty business on you.


Post 32

Saturday, December 3, 2005 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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It's dirty only if you don't wipe your hands first...

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