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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 2:44pmSanction this postReply
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I'm a scientist. I'm all for using logic, reason, and the (above all else) the evidence of my senses to form my world view.

This, however:
Quote:



It means a commitment to the principle that all of one's convictions, values, goals, desires and actions must be based on, derived from, chosen and validated by a process of thought.*




[*From the opening quote of the Rationality article on importanceofphilosophy.com by Ayn Rand, which states:
 "The virtue of Rationality means the recognition and acceptance of reason as one's only source of knowledge, one's only judge of values and one's only guide to action. ... It means a commitment to the principle that all of one's convictions, values, goals, desires and actions must be based on, derived from, chosen and validated by a process of thought."
Ayn Rand]

is more than a bit silly. Values, convictions, and desires can be rationallized or studied rationally (with questionable success to date), but aren't fundamentally rational.

Beyond that, I think there is room for mystical experience. I'm not so proud as to believe that I can figure out what the world is all about in my lifetime, or to believe that I have access to a truely objective world view.


Beyond that, many of the concepts we deal with in day-to-day life are arbitrarily defined, or unclearly defined. In many cases, it is hard to apply logic because the law of identity relies on the belief that our concepts actually correlate to objectively real objects - which is frequently not the case.

Two examples are the the unclear boundry and the ineffable.

In biology, organisms are perpetually reclassified because their relations are not clearly known or - in many cases - not fundamentally liable to a heirarchical or ancestral classification because of the various methods of genetic recombination. Or again, we may look at organisms as seperate which can be confusing from a metabolic standpoint when resources are shared between them - as in mycorrhizal fungi and trees. This last point also brings up the question of physicall seperation. Mycorrhizae frequently physically penetrate the cells of plants - ie., there's fungus in a plant cell. Although most plants can survive without fungus, some - such as orchids - cannot. And again, there are other endosymbionts - including chloroplasts and mitochondria - that have different heredities than the surrounding organism.

An interesting - and widely appreciated - boundry question is that of abortion. Assuming we all agree that murder is wrong, there becomes a quesiton of when a foetus becoms a human, or gains whatever it is that makes killing people wrong. This basically comes down to a question of boundry: at what point in the incremental development of a human does a person become a person?

Basically, this means there are certain arguments - which frequently occur in day to day life - that aren't liable to logic because their terms are either flawed or unclear.

Logic is also generally not useful when attempting to communicate the ineffable. Certain concepts are inherently hard to define or consider logically despite wide acceptance of their importance. These include love and mystical experience.


In any case, I think the ability to think and reason is great, but it doesn't define who we are as people, nor does it wholly define how we (in either an empirical or normative sense) relate to the world.

Please, if there are any confusions or misinterpreations that is evident in my post, feel free to make them explicit and demonstrate them to me - I am not attached to my transitory perspectives.

Thank you.



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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
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Basically, this means there are certain arguments - which frequently occur in day to day life - that aren't liable to logic because their terms are either flawed or unclear.

Logic is also generally not useful when attempting to communicate the ineffable. Certain concepts are inherently hard to define or consider logically despite wide acceptance of their importance. These include love and mystical experience.

Do you believe these statements to be logical?


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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
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Logic can only be applied to clear and definite ideas.
Relatively few ideas are clear and definite.
... you can do the math.

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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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Yet, love and mystical experiences are not outside of the realm of science. Just because we don't know a lot about the brain right now doesn't mean we can't apply good ol' science and logic to figure it out.

Sarah

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Post 4

Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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I cannot resist a pun,

Let's cut to the Chase...

//;-)

How much do you know about Objectivism, Chase? I ask because you do not sound familiar with the Objectivist concept of logic, nor the epistemological foundation of reason based on the 5 senses, a concept integration faculty (integrating percepts which integrate sensations), volition, a subconscious (producing the concept of psycho-epistemology) and axiomatic concepts of existence at the root.

There is a wealth of material available and I would be glad to point you in the right direction if you are interested in learning about what Objectivism really is - especially as applied to some of the issues you raised. Some of this stuff is online, enough to get started, but a good deal of it is in books, which you would have to buy (from among several retail bookstores), borrow from a friend or get at a library.

Anyway, welcome to Solo. I hope your time here will be productive and you even have a good time.

Michael


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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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No, here's a better way of putting it...

Classical logic depends on two laws:
Every statement is either true or false (or not true).
No statement can be both true and false (or not true).


These conditions clearly don't apply to such statements as "I love Amanda".
The situation is unclear with such statments as "Pluto is a planet", although this objection is piddling and purely semantic.
Further, there are plenty of situations in catagorizing knowlege where it is difficult to use logic because our knowlege is flawed in some more fundamental way - as in the catagorization of organisms.


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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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Chase,

They most definitely do apply to evaluative concepts and even emotions, but the relationship is extremely complex.

Once again, in order to be able to discuss this properly with you, I need to know basically what Objectivist works you have read, or if you have not read any (which is no problem whatsoever). I can then format responses that will be able to "speak the same language as you do," so to speak.

btw - I consider this kind of interaction to be a dynamic thing, where the idea is to arrive at a mutual understanding. I have much to teach, but I have much to learn. I have no interest in being an object in a show and I can get a bit out there if mind games start. I am going from the presumption that you are sincere. Please do not take these remarks as insinuating anything about you. Just setting my terms.

Michael


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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, thank you for your warm welcome. I appreciate your straightforwardness as well.

To answer your questions regarding my knowledge-base on the subject of Objectivism, importanceofphilosophy.com has been the primary source of Objectivist information that I've gathered, along with bits and parts from Wikipedia. Aside from that, I've conversed lightly with others who hold the objectivist stance. No physical books have been read thus far. I feel quite content with IOP.com and this site, so far.
Hope this clears that up for you.

 


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Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 11:37pmSanction this postReply
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Chase,

I suspected as much. To tell you the truth, should you decide to learn more about Objectivism, I envy you. Especially the first time reading experience you have in front of you with The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

If you have bothered to post at length on this site - even on the dissent part, this is an indication that something on Solo's explanation page, importanceofphilosophy.com, is touching you - messing with you. You went straight to the heart of it with your objections to reason.

In order to address ALL of the points you raised above would require an extremely long post and the discussion runs the risk of going off in all kinds of directions from the start. So I would like to suggest that you select one thing from all that and we can build from there - then go on to the others as the discussion develops. I have no doubt other posters will chime in as we go along.

Since you are a scientist, do you like science fiction? There is a website called the Objectivism Reference Center where several of Rand's works are provided for free online. Richard Lawrence, who owns the site and sometimes posts here on Solo, is extremely painstaking in trying to maintain the quality of the texts presented.

http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/texts/index.html

In particular, Rand's first novel, Anthem, which is quite short for a novel, is now in the public domain. It is available on this site. It is a science fiction novel that vaguely resembles 1984 by Orwell. It is about an inventor, albeit one who lives in a society that has been completely dominated by a collectivist mentality. The word "I" no longer exists, for example. His inventions are not very complicated, as they could not be under those circumstances, but Rand's portrayal of the soul of the inventor (and scientist, if you will) is extremely accurate. For a philosopher of reason, it is quite emotional.

I would like to suggest this work to you as a start. However, I do this without knowing whether you like fiction or even science fiction.

If you have a more combative nature, there is also a section on that site devoted to links to works that criticize Objectivism. I always believe that reading such criticism is good, but I would like to suggest that you read some of Rand's essays and works first (even Nathaniel Branden's early works). But please yourself - and most of all, enjoy yourself.

Michael


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Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 7:20amSanction this postReply
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Chase, you have some thoughtful and intelligent questions and seem sincere in asking them.  Michael has made some good points.  You should start with Rand herself.  If you get nothing else from her works, you'll at least encounter a great writer and great thinker.  I would also suggest that you read around SOLO and find someone who knows the subject and communicates it in a way that you find clear and see if they will do a Q&A exchange with you via email.  For those who are sincerely curious, forums can be discouraging.  I don't know what kind of scientist you are, but imagine trying to learn physics from a forum!  I'm not saying don't participate in here, by all means I hope you will. However, the answers to your questions, as Michael pointed out, go beyond the scope of the informal banter of a forum.  Also tell us a little about yourself, what kind of science do you practice?  The extended profile page is a good place to start.

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Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
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And...I almost forgot: welcome to SOLO.

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Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
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These conditions clearly don't apply to such statements as "I love Amanda".

Hmmmm.... This is a strange statment. I mean you seem to think that logic can be used to identify the who and what but not necessarily the WHY.

But I wonder, how can one know he loves Amanda at all if it is not logical? There must be something about the nature of Amanda that would make a man love her. I dare say, if you cant identify it, in some way, LOGICALLY, then you are in deep trouble. Love must be rational if it is to have any meaning, any reason to exist in the mind of the one that loves.

Reason is sexy and beautiful. There is nothing more wonderful than a man that loves a woman and understands why, deeply, with conviction. There is no other way to do this than through reasoning.

It is a fallacy to conflate something that is beyond articulation (which I doubt anything including LOVE ever is) with something that is beyond logic, beyond reason. If it were beyond logic it could not exist.

The Law of Identity makes it so.

Ha! If love were [beyond logic or articulation] we wouldnt have love songs, love poems or those terribly wonderful Shakespearian Sonnets!


(Edited by Marnee
on 10/13, 4:40pm)

(Edited by Marnee
on 10/13, 4:48pm)


Post 12

Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
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Marnee-
That was one of the best and most concise responses I've seen here in a while.
Sorry to hear you love Amanda though :(   ;)


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Post 13

Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 9:56pmSanction this postReply
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Chase Bawol wrote:
Classical logic depends on two laws:
Every statement is either true or false (or not true).
No statement can be both true and false (or not true).
These conditions clearly don't apply to such statements as "I love Amanda".
Chase, I'm not going to analyze or reply to every statement you made about what you think are limitations of logic. But what you said in the above quote is not a correct version of the laws of logic. And the example you gave is a good one for showing this.

"Every statement is either true or false (or not true)" is an incorrect statement of the Law of the Excluded Middle. You should have added: "at a given time and in a given respect." That is the form given it by Aristotle.

Similarly, "No statement can be both true and false (or not true)" should have been extended to say: "at the same time and in the same respect," in order to be a correct statement of the Law of Contradiction.

Consider the sentence: "I love Amanda." When is this being said? In what respect does the person love Amanda? Who is "I"? None of these are specified. You may love Amanda today but not tomorrow, so your saying it is true at one time, but not at another. You may love Amanda for her passionate sense of life, but not love her for her lack of personal hygiene, so your saying it is true in one respect, but not at another. You may love Amanda, while I do not love Amanda -- so in respect of your feelings for her, it is true, while in respect of my feelings for her, it is false.

Now, look back at how the LEM and the LOC apply to "I love Amanda." At a given time and in a given respect (which must be specified), "I love Amanda" is indeed either true or false -- and not both. And "I love Amanda" cannot be both true and false at the same given time and respect.

Failing to realize the time and respect must be specified so that the specific meaning of a statement is clearly understood before truth or falsity can be attributed to it is one of the most basic errors in understanding the laws of logic. If your logic textbook or professor did not make this issue clear to you, you should ask for your money back!

Best regards,
Roger Bissell, post-Randian musician/writer


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Friday, October 14, 2005 - 2:25amSanction this postReply
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Chase,

==========
I'm not so proud as to believe that I can figure out what the world is all about in my lifetime, or to believe that I have access to a truely objective world view.
==========

And THAT is your problem.

Ed
[problems are there to be solved]

Post 15

Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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Chase:
     The IOP is a good 'Cliff's Notes' intro to varied...spots...about O'ism; but, to suspect that reading an overall summary of something is to understand it well enough to do any critiquing...well, given that you're a scientist then I'm sure that you see the potential flaws in that view. --- Consider: I 'know' that in E=mc*2 that E stands for 'energy,' m stands for (need I go on?). 'Knowing' such doesn't mean that I 'understand' it very well. For that, I need to...know the math...before I can 'do the math.' I don't know all/enough of the math...ergo, I really don't 'understand' it to do much critiquing on it (as I'm aware some others have.)

     Further, what you argue about the place of logic in handling certain propositions makes me wonder a bit about your familiarity with logic, beyond the Conjunction-Logic (er, 'Mathematical Logic') colleges have been teaching. Many pro-logicians debate the priority-place, useability, and worth of Aristotelian as well as the 'if-then' hypotheticals. --- What you argue about the applicability of 'True/False' to "I love Amanda" shows that there'll probably be chronically a different page of logic-use you'll be on than most of us.

     Anyhoo, welcome aboard. Hope we can all learn something in any continued dialogue.

LLAP
J:D

P.S. I really suggest you check out Anthem (a quick read; trust me), then Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology. I do believe that you'll find them a worthy addition to your present knowledge from IOP on O'ism. Then you'll definitely know if The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged is worth following up on...as well as if continuing here is also.


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