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Post 160

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 7:49pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

You just pointed out the government issues loans to banks.

The government finances loans by creating new USDs, it simply creates the USD and gives it out in the form of a loan. Creating new USDs, increasing the total amount of USD that exists, decreases the rarity, and decreases the value of all the other USDs that already exist.

What happens when the government gives out a loan, and then never gets paid back? Where does the money go? Where did its value come from? How frequently does this happen?

What happens when the government gives out a loan at a lower interest rate than what any person would want to go with their own money? Where does the money go? Where did its value come from? How frequently does this happen?

The government inflates the money supply the most through loans, no? Loans that fail that were financed by money they add to the supply, and loans that have a low interest rate that were financed by money they added to the money supply.

Post 161

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
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The government also allows people to "invest" in it, if you give it some money now, it will give you more money later at some interest rate. Another name for this type of "investment" is a loan. Where does the government get the extra money from to pay the loan back in the future? Why would someone invest in a company when they can "invest" in the government instead at a higher rate of return? Ouch, double wammo. Inflation and reduction in incentives to invest in productive individuals.

And then the government spends a lot of money too, doesn't it? More than its income, no?

So are you trying to tell me that its not the government that causes the increase in the number of USD's that exist? Are you trying to tell me that its not a problem, or that it is a good thing?

Post 162

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Did anyone notice the news that the Federal government stopped reporting M3 in March? Is it true? What do you think that means?

Did anyone notice that gold prices are still going up? What do you think that means?

I think the US gov is going to inflate the money supply to hell.

What do you act to gain or keep? USD? Gold? Euro? What happens when your money is managed by a bunch of thieves and idiots? I just bought A LOT of gold. Too bad I didn't have more money. Then I'd buy even more gold! : )

Post 163

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 9:38amSanction this postReply
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Dean, Gold is a hedge against inflation or irrational practices, but when you invest it all comes down to earnings of companies, what the risks are, and what the return is or can be.  So, it is all worked out in the mix for the most part, including the rate of bonds vs. rates of riskier corporate bonds, equities and the like. 

No doubt there is danger in the current dramatic over-spending, but as I said, this is something we all agree is a bad idea.  I just think that while gold can hedge, it is not the monetary system per-se that is the issue.

Also, there are times of contracting money supply, for instance that is why rates are going up currently.


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Post 164

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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I want to just thank Bill Dwyer for his excellent contributions on this thread.  Great stuff, and very well said.

I would like to examine this issue from a different perspective, since it's easy to get lost in a conversation like this.  There are various reasons to support a gold standard (or commodity standard).  One is the economic implications, which I think Bill is defending well.  One problem with starting at the economic level for an Objectivist is that it's rather utilitarian.  It's like arguing for whatever is best for the economy.  It happens to be true that freedom is what's best for the economy, but that's not our primary justification.  In other words, while Bill is spot on with the theory, I think it's a secondary argument.

Another perspective, which I think Dean is hitting on, is that putting the government in charge of the money supply is a quick road to abuse and theft.  This leads to more political questions, like why is the government involved in something like this in the first place?  It's not a protection of rights.  In fact, increases to the money supply are readily viewable as theft.  They're taking away the value of money from everyone else by fiat.  They force the use of their money as legal tender.

Going a little further, with a simple understanding of the origins of money, it's easy to see that it arises naturally from trade.  Individuals trade goods and services, and eventually settle (by market choice, not force) on a commodity (or a couple: silver and gold for instance) that they are pretty sure they can trade to others later.  The commodity gets a network effect going, making it more and more capable of being used for exchange as more and more people use it for exchange.  And there you have money.

Now what right does the government have to come in and decide to control this commodity?  Or to force a transition to worthless paper?  Or to manipulate that money supply based on "economic" decisions.  How do they justify this massive and widespread use of force?

The fact that the initial crime is now a historical footnote doesn't justify or remedy it.  Every additional dollar that they print is a continuation of the crime.  Every law encouraging its use or preventing others (as gold at least used to be illegal to use) is a crime.  The fact that they've severed the connection to gold does not make their inflation justifiable or moral.  It only obfuscates the crime.  They simply claim a right to indirectly steal wealth since they "own" the money supply.

It's like stealing all the land and then charging rent on it.  The fact that the rent has to obey some market forces doesn't make it any less of a theft.  Even if they try to follow a "rational" economic policy of setting the rent prices to encourage industry growth, it is still theft.  And the same applies to the money supply.

This is why Objectivism supports a gold standard.  It's not simply to have a more reliable money supply.  It's not just to cut back on inflation.  It's not to try to even out price fluctuations.  It's not to improve the economy. 

It's to remedy that past and present crimes, and put property back into the hands of individuals.  It's to make the use of money voluntary, as it should be.  It's to get the government out of the economy and back into the business of protecting rights.


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Post 165

Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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I just want to add a big thank you to Bill and Dean.

Bill, you word things so well, you cast such a large 'net' in preempting counter-responses and yet that same net has a fine mesh, not letting even small details get through.

Dean, you have a knack for getting right to the heart of a matter -- to the meat of it. Impressive debate, for sure.

I really enjoyed reading both of your contributions here.

Ed


Post 166

Sunday, April 9, 2006 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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I want to thank both Joe and Ed for the fine compliments. They couldn't have come at a better time, since today is my birthday. I can't believe I'm 66. I'm in excellent physical condition, but the trick is figuring out how to stay there. Ed knows what I'm talking about, since we've had some discussion along those lines about the causes of various diseases that typically strike people my age.

Speaking of which, I went on the Pritikin diet 21 years ago, and improved my risk factors for heart disease (and cancer) dramatically. I took my blood pressure today at a Long's Drug Store. It was 101 over 59. This was shortly after I got done working out at a gym and having lunch. I have the blood pressure of a 12-year old. 22 years ago, my blood pressure was 134 over 90, even though I was exercising more then than I am now. I also weigh less today than I did when I was 21. When I went on the Pritikin diet, the medical establishment still hadn't accepted his ideas - that an extremely low-fat, high complex carbohydrate diet could reverse atherosclerosis and reduce the risk of cancer. Now, they do.

When Nathan Pritikin discovered his diet, he had severe heart disease and leukemia. His doctor said that there was little that medical science could do for him. So he took matters into his own hands. Pritikin, an inventor with many patents to his name, applied his creative and original thinking to curing himself. After he discovered his diet and been on it for a year or so, his doctor expressed amazement at the improvement in his serum cholesterol and blood pressure. His leukemia also went into remission and stayed that way for the next 25 years, until he had an unfortunate relapse at the age of 69, due no doubt to the decline in immune function that occurs with aging. Now, it is recognized that a very low-fat, low-sugar diet is anti-carcinogenic as well as anti-atherogenic.

Needless to say, I plan to be around for a few more birthdays - many more, in fact!

Cheers!

- Bill



Post 167

Sunday, April 9, 2006 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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Happy Birthday, Bill!!!

Ed
[though I still disagree with you -- vehemently -- regarding Pritikin's prescriptions and global human health]


Post 168

Sunday, April 9, 2006 - 8:57pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Ed. I knew I'd get a rise out of you! ;-)

Bill

Post 169

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 11:57pmSanction this postReply
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It's conceivable that if we had free banking and the elimination of a fiat currency, some other commodity money like platinum might be favored as a medium of exchange. Which commodity became widely accepted as money would depend ultimately on people's voluntary choices - on what sellers were willing to accept in exchange for their goods and services.

Bill I'm not sure if this idea sounds good to me. If we are to use a commodity as a means of exchange other than fiat currency, should it not be uniform in the market place to alleviate confusion amongst consumers? For example the government decrees which commodity would be used, whether it be gold or platinum, only one is chosen and dollars are printed as a receipt for (x) amount of commodity, where this money is printed by the government. Otherwise would not there be the possibility we would have mulitiple prices for one product in the market? And consumers would have to carry around different currencies depending on what a merchant accepts? I hate to think I'd have to walk into Wal-Mart, and see three to four different prices listed for the same box of Kleenex. If I recall a similar problem arised in the early history of America where each State had its own currency and it lead to a lot of confusion in the market place.


Post 170

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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And the market sorted itself out on that.....

Post 171

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 8:42amSanction this postReply
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No I don't think it did. Each state literally had it's own currency, it made interstate commerce extremely difficult to accomplish. That's why a central currency was established very early on in American history.

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Post 172

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, It's conceivable that if we had free banking and the elimination of a fiat currency, some other commodity money like platinum might be favored as a medium of exchange. Which commodity became widely accepted as money would depend ultimately on people's voluntary choices - on what sellers were willing to accept in exchange for their goods and services.

John replied, Bill I'm not sure if this idea sounds good to me. If we are to use a commodity as a means of exchange other than fiat currency, should it not be uniform in the market place to alleviate confusion amongst consumers? For example the government decrees which commodity would be used, whether it be gold or platinum, only one is chosen and dollars are printed as a receipt for (x) amount of commodity, where this money is printed by the government. Otherwise would not there be the possibility we would have mulitiple prices for one product in the market? And consumers would have to carry around different currencies depending on what a merchant accepts? I hate to think I'd have to walk into Wal-Mart, and see three to four different prices listed for the same box of Kleenex. If I recall a similar problem arised in the early history of America where each State had its own currency and it lead to a lot of confusion in the market place.

Are you saying that each State had a different commodity money, or that each state had different bank notes for which a uniform commodity money could be redeemed, because remember I'm talking here about a commodity currency. Each State may well have had it's own separate bank notes, but that almost certainly should have posed no problem for interstate commerce.

From 1815 to 1914, the entire world was on a gold standard (with silver also being used for smaller purchases). Each country had its own bank notes, to be sure, but these were defined in terms of a certain weight of gold. For example, the dollar was defined as 1/20th of an ounce of gold, and the pound sterling as approximately 1/4 of an ounce of gold. Consequently, the exchange rates between the bank notes of the various countries were fixed not by government decree but by the relationship of the notes to a certain weight of gold. This meant that the world was on an international gold standard - that one commodity money was being used worldwide. This worldwide use of gold as the commodity money of choice made international commerce much easier than it otherwise would have been, had there been different commodity monies in different countries, and of course it made interstate commerce within the United States much easier as well. Observe that the use of gold worldwide resulted not from any world bank mandating its use, but from of its popularity with buyers and sellers on a free market. The popularity of gold as a medium of exchange arose because of its homogeneity, divisibility, durability, high unit value, relative portability, etc.

It is true that under a free banking system, different banks could issue their own banknotes redeemable in gold, although the banknotes would tend to circulate in place of the physical gold, because it would simply be more convenient. So, Bank of America's banknotes would have its logo on them, just as B of A's checks do today, as would Wells Fargo's, Citibank's, etc. And just as merchants today accept checks from the customers of Wells Fargo, B of A, Citibank, etc., so under a free banking system they would accept the different notes from these banks. The notes would specify the precise quantity of gold for which they could be exchanged, if desired.

Also, if a particular bank were suspected of insolvency, stores like Walmart could and probably would refuse to accept its banknotes, which would serve as an incentive for banks to ensure that their borrowers were credit worthy. Much has already been written on the theory and history of free banking; I'm just scratching the surface. If you're interested, I would recommend Murray Rothbard's little book, What Has Government Done to Our Money for a good explanation of the virtues of a commodity-based monetary system.

- Bill

Post 173

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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The assumption that runs through this thread is that there must be banknotes to represent the commodity if a particular one is chosen by the government to be a medium of exchange.

Why the **** should the government have anything to do with control of the money supply and dictating how individuals should consummate their transactions? The commodity itself should be exchanged from person to person without government control and their ability to debase the currency.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I've posted this before:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Hibbert/A_Method_of_Transferring_Fractional_Ounces_of_Physical_Gold,_with_Confidence,_from_Person_to_Person.shtml

I remain a huge gold bug and am profiting immensely. I've held gold as an ideological conviction since the late '70s, convinced that governments are incompetent to manage the economy and crises. I put my money where my mouth is.

Sam


Post 174

Friday, April 28, 2006 - 10:06pmSanction this postReply
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And just as merchants today accept checks from the customers of Wells Fargo, B of A, Citibank, etc.,

Well I as a merchant don't accept any checks because people have a tendency to forego any math skills when balancing a check :)

But I understand what you're saying. So would you say the government ought not to establish any kind of currency? Including a commodity based currency?

Are you saying that each State had a different commodity money, or that each state had different bank notes for which a uniform commodity money could be redeemed
Not sure actually. I only recall there was some issue of at least a perceived chaotic system of differing states with their own currencies and in 1792 a national currency was established to replace state currencies. I don't know whether those currenices were based on a commodity or if they were just fiat. Perhaps there was no chaos at all and the national currency was established for political reasons. I honestly don't know.

Didn't Alexander Hamilton start the first Central Bank of America?

I will check out that book though Bill, sounds interesting and I am ashamed to admit I know so little about commodity currency even though I have a degree in Economics :(


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Post 175

Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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Bill: "And just as merchants today accept checks from the customers of Wells Fargo, B of A, Citibank, etc..." John:
Well I as a merchant don't accept any checks because people have a tendency to forego any math skills when balancing a check :)
Of course, and merchants would typically be even more willing to accept private banknotes than they would private checks.
But I understand what you're saying. So would you say the government ought not to establish any kind of currency? Including a commodity based currency?
Yes, on the grounds that it's not the proper function of government. The right to freedom of exchange is a corollary of the right to freedom of action, which means that people ought to be free to make any deals they want as long as the deals are voluntary and consensual. So, if people want to use platinum as a medium of exchange, they should certainly have the right to do that, in which case, the government has no business interfering with that arrangement by mandating the use of an alternative currency.

I asked, "Are you saying that each State had a different commodity money, or that each state had different bank notes for which a uniform commodity money could be redeemed?
Not sure actually. I only recall there was some issue of at least a perceived chaotic system of differing states with their own currencies and in 1792 a national currency was established to replace state currencies. I don't know whether those currenices were based on a commodity or if they were just fiat. Perhaps there was no chaos at all and the national currency was established for political reasons. I honestly don't know.
As I understand it, the problem was not any confusion caused by a proliferation of different banknotes by the states, but rather a devaluation of these notes both by the Continental Congress, which resorted to the issuance of fiat money (the "Continental dollar") to finance the Revolutionary War, and by several of the states, which subsequently issued their own paper currency. The total money supply at the start of the Revolution in 1775 was $12 million. By 1779, it had risen to $239 million. Whereas at the end of 1776, the Continental dollar could be exchanged for one dollar's worth of gold or silver, by 1779, 42 Continental dollars were needed to acquire one dollar's worth of specie. By 1781, the exchange rate was 168 paper dollars for one dollar in specie. Moreover, several of the states, led by Virginia and the Carolinas added their own paper money for an additional $210 million in depreciated dollars to the Nation's currency. (Murray Rothbard, A History of Money and Banking in the United States, p. 59, 60)

It is this inflationary debacle that Jeremy Atack and Peter Passall misleadingly refer to in their book A New Economic View of American History, when they write, "The [monetary] situation had only deteriorated under the Confederation with each new state issuing its own money and the repudiation of the Continental dollar." (p. 82) Observe that it was governments, both the Continental Congress and the state governments, that were responsible for this inflationary fiasco, not a system of free, private banking. This fiat money expansion simply exacerbated whatever "shortage" of gold and silver was thought to exist at the time. In accordance with Gresham's Law, which states that "bad money drives out good," the bad -- relatively worthless -- fiat paper notes made gold and silver specie much more valuable by comparison causing people to hoard it, just as people buy gold coins today and hold them as a hedge against inflation.
Didn't Alexander Hamilton start the first Central Bank of America?
Actually, Robert Morris was responsible for starting the first central bank, in 1782, called "The Bank of North America." But it too proceeded to inflate its bank notes, causing them to depreciate against the reserves of specie, and people soon lost confidence in its notes. The bank was eventually sold into private hands. Because of the failure of The Bank of North America, Hamilton sought to replace it with the "First Bank of the United States" in 1791, which was actually the second central bank of the new Republic.
I will check out that book though Bill, sounds interesting and I am ashamed to admit I know so little about commodity currency even though I have a degree in Economics :(
Well, you're not likely to hear much about the failure of central banking in today's universities, that's for sure, nor anything about the free-banking alternative. So, no shame there! Most of your professors probably didn't know a lot about this issue either.

Dr. Richard Ebeling, President of the Foundation for Economic Education (FEE) recently gave a talk at my university in which he argued that central banking is subject to the same criticism as any other government-run economic activity. Are you aware of the "socialist calculation" problem, identified by Ludwig von Mises and F.A. Hayek? The problem is that no central planner can possibly have enough knowledge to direct economic activity for the entire economy, nor would he or she have the incentive to do so efficiently, even if such knowledge were available. Well, the same problem exists for central banking. A central banker cannot know the proper quantity of money nor the proper interest rate, any more than a central planner can know the proper quantity or price of any other item in the economy. Only the laws of supply and demand can determine that. Why should we think it is any different for money and banking?

- Bill



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Post 176

Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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Something more on the theory of private note issuance: The following is from Lawrence H. White, who is an acknowledged authority on the free-banking alternative.


Under Free banking individuals may choose among the notes of a plurality of private issuers. They are not limited to using the notes of a privileged central bank. Monopolization of note issue is a defining characteristic of central banking, and a characteristic that has always emerged from legislative intervention. There is no evidence of a tendency toward natural monopoly in the issue of bank notes. Open competition in issue ensures that banks will provide notes with the characteristics note holders demand. The quality dimensions along which notes may differ include ease of redemption, reputability of issuer (this is a combination of trustworthiness and renown), and proof against counterfeiting. All of these will affect a note's most important characteristic, its ability to circulate. Competition among bank note issuers is in many respects similar to the competition we see today among issuers of credit cards and traveler's checks, as well as being similar to competition among banks for checking account customers. Respect for microeconomic criteria and individual sovereignty requires that government not limit consumers' choices by interfering with competition among potential note issuers.

One argument sometimes made against competitive issue of bank notes (and which presumably also could be made against competitive issue of checking accounts, traveler's checks, and credit cards, though it rarely is) runs the following way: The reason people use money is to lower the information or transactions costs of accomplishing desired trades. Dealing with numerous brands of hand-to-hand currency implies bearing high information or transactions costs. Suppressing the number of issuers therefore improves economic welfare. I have elsewhere offered the rebuttal that this argument amounts to the paternalistic view that too much choice makes life difficult for people and should be eliminated by the government choosing for them; if valid in the case of bank notes, this argument would be valid against brand proliferation in any industry. Here I wish to elaborate on that rebuttal. Consider an initial situation with only a single brand of bank notes. What is the case against allowing a second brand? Individuals (for example, shopkeepers) who do not wish to be bothered with the new brand can refuse to deal with it. If they do choose to deal with it (accept it), presumably they consider the information and transactions costs worth bearing in light of the benefits they expect. If the costs are generally considered not worth bearing, the market will not support a second brand. This holds for n + 1 brands as well as for two. The rational of open competition among multiple brands of bank notes (as among brands of anything else) is the freedom to discover which brands and how many brands best suit consumer preferences. Central bank monopoly eliminates the chance for individuals to accept other brands of notes even when the benefits exceed the cost.




On a somewhat unrelated point, I'd like to address the objection that a commodity money like gold is subject to the same inflationary pressures as fiat money is, because insofar as the commodity is highly valued, there will be an incentive to produce ever more of it, which will eventually increase the supply and devalue the commodity in the same way that fiat money has been devalued. The answer to this is revealed in the objection itself.

The incentive -- or profitability -- in mining ever more gold is subject to the same checks against an oversupply as is any other commodity. As the supply of the commodity increases relative to its demand, its price (or, in the case of gold money, its purchasing power) will fall and it will therefore become less profitable to produce. Once the supply increases to the point at which the marginal cost of mining and refining it into gold bars and coins exceeds its purchasing power, production will cease. There is no point in producing something at a loss. When the demand for gold subsequently increases to the point at which it becomes profitable to resume its production, more of it will then be produced. In short, the profit motive will tend to ensure a supply of gold that constitutes neither a shortage nor a surplus.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 4/29, 8:04pm)


Post 177

Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 10:10amSanction this postReply
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Bill, I wish you were one of my professors! Thanks for your insightful comments :)

Post 178

Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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John, thanks for the compliment, but I still have a lot to learn about this subject myself. As you are well aware, this is not part of the economic curriculum of most universities. In fact, I'd venture to say that most graduate students in economics have never even been introduced to it. Even those who favor free markets in virtually every other area cannot imagine a truly free market in money and banking.

- Bill

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