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Post 140

Monday, June 28, 2004 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Everyone,

I have just sent draft 1 of my article to the editors for review. One of 2 things will undoubtedly occur:

1) I will - with my self-acclaimed breakthrough article - effectively silence all this cantankerous rabble-rousing over talk of universals, nominalism, realism, etc.

or

2) I will - by a preposterous over-confidence in my own abilities to both clear the mental fog and capture the gems of understanding underlying a previously contentious issue - be labelled as a boisterous megalomaniac who thinks that his own unidentified & unidentifiable thoughts can somehow change the world

I'm hoping that number 1 entails.

Ed



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Post 141

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 4:15amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I have just sent draft 1 of my article to the editors for review. One of 2 things will undoubtedly occur:

Congratulations!

1) I will - with my self-acclaimed breakthrough article - effectively silence all this cantankerous rabble-rousing over talk of universals, nominalism, realism, etc.

I'm sure it is a, "breakthrough," and I for one am eager to read it.

or

2) I will - by a preposterous over-confidence in my own abilities to both clear the mental fog and capture the gems of understanding underlying a previously contentious issue - be labelled as a boisterous megalomaniac who thinks that his own unidentified & unidentifiable thoughts can somehow change the world

I'm certain your very well identified thoughts could change the world. The difficulty is getting other people to think them.

I'm hoping that number 1 entails.
 
Me too!

(Of course, if you've really done it in less than a thousand words or so it will be nothing short of a miracle--while I wish you success, I do not look forward to calling you Lord. ;>)

Regi




Post 142

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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Regi,

Thanks for the support and acknowledgement! My hope is to not ever let you down (to continually go on trading value with you - to acknowledge and support your excellences - and to personally benefit from such excellences).

Although none of this mush deserves consideration in the unfortunate circumstance of finding me imprisoned in a self-constructed dream-world of abstraction; where you happen to have a philosophical wrecking-ball that can set me free of my elaborate, constraining constructions!

Ed

Post 143

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 7:36amSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

I have always considered this, at best, ambiguous, but more likely a mistake.

Aristotle regarded "essence" as metaphysical; Objectivism regards it as epistemological.
Earlier she said, "A definition must identify the nature of the units, i.e., the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are."

The former statement, (the one you quoted), is part of her attempt to explain the difference between concepts as Aristotle viewed them and concepts as Objectivism views them. She correctly points out Aristotle's mistake is assuming essence to be some metaphysical "something" that one grasps intuitively.

But things really do have an essence, that which makes them the things they are rather than something else. And Ayn Rand got it right when she observed that essence is, "the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are." A thing must have those characteristics to be the thing it is and with those characteristics it cannot be anything else. Those characteristics are an existent's essence, and those characteristics are metaphysical, real attributes of real things.

A thing's essence is identified conceptually, and explicitly isolated by the definition of the word for the concept, but essences are metaphysical, else no concept could identify them.

Regi


Post 144

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 8:02amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Although none of this mush deserves consideration in the unfortunate circumstance of finding me imprisoned in a self-constructed dream-world of abstraction; where you happen to have a philosophical wrecking-ball that can set me free of my elaborate, constraining constructions!

Nice! Did you have rhetoric flakes for breakfast?

Regi


Post 145

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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To Regi: Remember, the chapter of IOE is titled "Definitions." According to AR, definitions can change according to new knowledge. Essence, as captured in the act of definition, identifies only those characteristics that identify the units and explain the most about them at the present level of knowledge. So essence is epistemological. (But the characteristics themselves are metaphysical--that is, they do exist.)

Now, conceivably one may arrive at a final definition that explains all characteristics forever. In fact, that is what all definitions should tend toward. However, no method of cognition can assume omniscience and infallibility.

It is true that many concepts, such as "orphan," possess stipulated definitions that do not change. But even these may not embody all apects of their referents. And while this may be regarded by some as a borderline issue, AR is still justified in saying essence, as captured in the act of definition, is not metaphysical but epistemological.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 6/29, 9:19am)


Post 146

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

Your beginning to sound more like a politician than a philosopher.

"... AR is still justified in saying essence, as captured in the act of definition, is not metaphysical but epistemological."

That's not what she said. Look at your own quote:

"Aristotle regarded "essence" as metaphysical; Objectivism regards it as epistemological."

She was comparing the Objectivist view of essence to the Aristotelian view. She says "... Objectivism regards it [essence] as epistemological." What's the point of the dance. That's what she said, and it's wrong. She wasn't infallible. She made mistakes.

Your addition of "as captured in the act of definition," is true of all concepts. You might as well say, "Rocks, as captured in the act of definition, are not metaphysical but epistemological. But rocks, identified by the concept rock are metaphysical, and essence(s), identified by the concept essence are metaphysical.

Rodney, you said, "But the characteristics themselves are metaphysical--that is, they do exist." It is the characteristics that are the essence of a thing, not the word for the concept of them, and not the concept. The definition may indicate what, "those characteristics that identify the units and explain the most about them at the present level of knowledge," are, but the definition is not those characteristic, and the concept is only the identification of the units with those characteristic, but what makes them units of that concept is their actual nature, their essence. If they had a different nature, a different set of characteristic, a different essence, they would not be units of that concept.

The essence of a thing is its nature. Ayn Rand understood that, "... the nature of the units, i.e., the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are," is the actual case. If essence were epistemological, it would be what we think about things that gives them their nature, that makes them what they are. Unless you have suddenly converted to idealism, you can see the absurdity of that view. 

Regi


Post 147

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Regi,

I agree with Rodney's view here, which can be summarized with the following:

In order for HUMANS to talk about any actual, identifiable ESSENCES - they will necessarily be speaking of that which best explains all that which is known (they will not be speaking of that which is, as yet, unknown and underlying it all; ie. the bare fabric of reality).  

I'd even stick my neck out to claim that your request for ontological exactitude is idealistic.

Ed



Post 148

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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Regi,

Afterthought:
The human purpose of identifying an essence is to understand where an existent fits in with all other known existents (to understand reality).  Ontological precision in this process is a noble goal, but not necessary (in fact, assuming it's "necessity" - as Kant did - opened the door to Ontological Idealism).  Accuracy is all that's needed - it's sufficient for all human purposes (beyond satisfying raw curiosity, of course).

Ed


Post 149

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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2nd Afterthought,

This train of thought still can/should be judged according to where it falls on our original human distinction regarding knowledge:

100% accuracy (clear and sufficient understanding of reality) vs. 100% precision (omniscience; intimate knowledge of the fabric of reality)

I hold that 100% accuracy is all we need; and that it is achievable with our human mental machinery.  My new paradox is this: precision is relative (context dictates the required level of precision - something else that human minds can know with 100% accuracy).

Ed


Post 150

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 1:32pmSanction this postReply
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Regi, you say "She was comparing the Objectivist view of essence to the Aristotelian view. She says 'Objectivism regards it [essence] as epistemological.' ... That's what she said, and it's wrong."

But she was saying it in the context of a chapter dealing with definitions. The error is in philosophers' thinking that essential qualities are that way metaphysically, when in reality there is no essence (for example) of a dog, just distinguishing characteristics that sum up the present state of our knowledge about these creatures.

I think you need to hold the context in mind to truly understand AR's phrase "the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are." For the concept of man, this would be "rationality" and "being an animal." But these are only essential characteristics as regards our present understanding.


Post 151

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Thanks for the response. I think you have misunderstood what I am saying. I do not disagree with what you are saying and what I said doesn't disagree with it either.

In order for HUMANS to talk about any actual, identifiable ESSENCES - they will necessarily be speaking of that which best explains all that which is known (they will not be speaking of that which is, as yet, unknown and underlying it all; ie. the bare fabric of reality).

Of Course. That's one reason definitions can change as we learn more. I never said we know perfectly what the essential qualities of things are. Since, all I mean by essence is whatever qualities and existent must have to be the kind of existent it is, either things do have specific necessary qualities to be what they are or they don't. I say they do. I didn't say we know what they all are or that a definition necessarily captures them all, but they must have them or they would not be the thing they are.  

I'd even stick my neck out to claim that your request for ontological exactitude is idealistic.

What ontological exactitude did I request?

The human purpose of identifying an essence is to understand where an existent fits in with all other known existents (to understand reality).  Ontological precision in this process is a noble goal, but not necessary (in fact, assuming it's "necessity" - as Kant did - opened the door to Ontological Idealism).  Accuracy is all that's needed - it's sufficient for all human purposes (beyond satisfying raw curiosity, of course).
 
In real life, I do not think most people actually think about identifying essences. It is enough to know that a thing is what it is, and that is whatever its qualities (attributes, characteristics, and properties) are. That some of those qualities are necessary to a thing if it is to be the kind of thing it is. The rest are only possible but not necessary (or what is classically and unfortunately called accidentals). The necessary qualities are a things essence, or the "essential qualities."

It is not necessary for us to know every single aspect of those essential qualities at all, to know what a thing is. In most cases, the details do not even come up, and it is only necessary to seek refinements to what we do know about a things qualities when there are ambiguous cases. But we DO have to know, that even if we never know what they are, a thing must have some qualities that distinguish it from all other things and those qualities are necessary for it to be what it is. Those qualities are a things essence, its nature, what it is, however much we do or do not know about those qualities.

Regi





Post 152

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 1:52pmSanction this postReply
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Regi, I realize you have your own views on ontology, some of which are expressed in your perception essay, which I have yet to read fully. I am not disputing those views (though so far it looks like I will disagree with them). But I think they are coloring your interpretations of AR's statements, so I am clearing up what she is saying on an objective reading.

Post 153

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney, I am aware that Rand considers essences to be epistemological, which qualifies her as a conceptualist, but she doesn’t stay the course, as with her example in ITOE of ‘length’. In discussing this issue with the professors, she insists that ‘length’ exists in reality, just not by itself, and that’s usually taken to mean moderate realism.

Why she does this apparent about-face seems to have something to do with her notion of measurement omission, which implies that measurements really exist, and that they are measurements of something. In the case of her match, pencil, stick example, the omitted measurements are of ‘length’, and this length is common to the three objects.

For a conceptualist, this “universal” term ‘length’ should refer to a concept, a mental ‘entity’. But Rand seems to locate the same quality in all three objects, which would make her a realist of the moderate variety.

Regi, please, you’re preaching to the converted. As I said above, I’m not defending realism in universals, so I am mostly in agreement with you.

Brendan


Post 154

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

Regi, I realize you have your own views on ontology
 
Well, if I have any view on ontology it will be mine, because there is no Objectivist ontology.

But I think they [my views on ontology] are coloring your interpretations of AR's statements, so I am clearing up what she is saying on an objective reading.

What, my reading is not objective? Did I say she said something she didn't? Did I interpret what she said to mean something she did not intend? I am a pretty good "objective" reader. My views about what she said came after reading what she wrote and fully understanding that.

Frankly, I think you are being very unobjective. If A is A means anything, it means that a thing is what it is because it has certain specific qualities and if it had any others, or lacked any it has, it would be something else. Those qualities it must have to be what it is, to be A rather than B or C, are its essence. Do you disagree with that?

If a thing actually has a nature, determined by its essential qualities, that nature is metaphysical, not epistemological. Do you disagree with that?

If Ayn Rand says a thing's essence, its nature determined by its essential qualities, the ones it must have to be what it is, is epistemological, that is a mistake. Do you disagree with that?

If you disagree with any of these, can you explain objectively why you disagree?

Before you answer, ask yourself a question. Suppose my argument is right, why would you not want to know what is right even if it seems to contradict what you have always assumed is correct and you feel comfortable with. I am not trying to damage anything Ayn Rand achieved. I want to advance objective philosophy which reached its greatest achievement under the mental hand of Ayn Rand. But to just assume she never made a mistake or provided all the answers forever is a huge mistake.

Regi



Post 155

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Regi, Rodney, ah hell - Brendan, too! ...

Side-note: Rodney, sorry to jump in front of you (Regi directed his inquiry to you).
 
You guys, if you can read between the lines here: I think we're getting way too much spark here from such a little flint.  I'm trying to hold my tongue here - waiting for editor feedback on my relevant article - and I even sent the damn thing in before getting any feedback - so that various viewpoints on THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE can get the clarity (that I think) my article provides!  Aaaaagh!


Those qualities it must have to be what it is, to be A rather than B or C, are its essence. Do you disagree with that?
Okay, Regi.  But look again at your words.  Do you see how essences are "determined" COMPARATIVELY (as "A" RATHER THAN "B or C?")?


If a thing actually has a nature, determined by its essential qualities, that nature is metaphysical, not epistemological. Do you disagree with that?
Regi, of course no one (except perhaps the trolls) would disagree with this (perhaps you meant this to be rhetorical?). 

Yes, there is a "metaphysicality" underlying, and somehow giving rise to, EVERYTHING epistemological (I don't think anyone - even the ghost of Rand - would disagree with this)

The issue is with IDENTIFICATION of essentials and identification will always be human identification - it will always be a DIFFERENTIATION of some knowledge from other knowledge to identify what is distinct about one known thing from another known thing (There's an inherent epistemological constraint to any descriptive-informative talk of essentials). 

For all intents and purposes, the human discussions of essences - when they are meant to be descriptive-informative - will be epistemological discussions.

 
If Ayn Rand says a thing's essence, its nature determined by its essential qualities, the ones it must have to be what it is, is epistemological, that is a mistake. Do you disagree with that?
Regi, we all know that your answer is right (if essences were only epistemological - there would have been no "natures" before consciousness).  The issue is whether Rand, when given a pop-quiz on the matter would answer the wrong way.  Well, she would answer fine and we could all go home - her answers wouldn't be different from yours.

In sum, I don't think you have "a case" against her understanding of the issue; though you do have one against her choice of words.

Ed


Post 156

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 4:15amSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed, Rodney,

You concluded:

In sum, I don't think you have "a case" against her understanding of the issue; though you do have one against her choice of words.

I think you are most likely right. All we have to go by are her words. Now Ayn Rand wrote with great care and deliberation, and even if this is only a poor choice of words, it is important enough that people quote it as an argument. It's not a minor thing.

However, I do think she understood the issue correctly, but was so intent on eliminating Aristotle's mistake, she let rhetoric overshadow clear explication. I did not accuse her of being fundamentally wrong. I only accused her of a mistake and even mentioned that a few pages before the mistake she got it right. Here's what I said:

I have always considered this, at best, ambiguous, but more likely a mistake.

Aristotle regarded "essence" as metaphysical; Objectivism regards it as epistemological.

Earlier she said, "A definition must identify the nature of the units, i.e., the essential characteristics without which the units would not be the kind of existents they are."


I suspect you may both, Ed and Rodney, misunderstand my motives. It is inevitable in the shear volume of Ayn Rand's work that some errors would creep in. Wherever they are, the enemies of objective reason will find them and latch on to them to repudiate Objectivism as a way of attacking objective reason itself. By pointing out such errors and correcting them and showing they are either anomalies or matters of incompleteness and not fundamental, we can preserve Objectivism and strengthen the foundation of reason and truth. It is wrong just to wave them off as unimportant.

I seldom quote the Bible, but this bit of wisdom is timeless--it is "the little foxes that spoil the vines."

Regi



Post 157

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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Brendan, can you give me an example of where exactly in IOE AR seems to imply essences are metaphysical? Give me a few page numbers if you can. I think I know how to answer your concerns, but I want to make sure I fully understand your perceptions. I have the expanded edition.

Let me add that I'm not here to defend Rand's every belief--my copy of the book has marginal comments and objections of my own. For example, there are a few spots where she appears not to have understood the exact question at first.

(I should really learn not to get involved in such threads as this one when I'm so busy. Sorry to keep mentioning it, but if I say anything really stupid that's my excuse.)


Post 158

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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I've posted my new ground-breaking, breath-taking, and all-around-schism-forming article as a new general discussion thread.  For a good time (staccato-style), see:

http://www.solohq.com/Forum/GeneralForum/0170.shtml


Post 159

Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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Greetings, Regi et al.

My apologies for bringing a slow-moving vehicle into the fast lane here, but this discussion has prompted me to put together some thoughts I have had that have been loose for too long.

 

I took the time to read your essay on perception, Regi, that Mr. Stolyarov kindly provided a link to in another thread.  I am not well-read in ontology or epistemology, so I cannot assess Mr. Stolyarov’s claim that your insight is the neatest thing in philosophy since sliced bread.  I can say that what you’ve written strikes me as commonsense, which is no slight to your article, seeing that commonsense is so uncommon.

 

Moreover, it started to shine some light on the hash I found Rand’s epistemology to be.  I could not digest what appeared to be an unnecessary divide between sensation and perception.  It seemed to me that Objectivism was making an extra step out of the process of comprehending information I collected from my senses, and that it was a step that seemed to add nothing more than what my senses must have already told me.

 

Furthermore, Peikoff’s discursions into the sensations and perceptions of newborns and lesser animals struck me as tying Objectivist epistemology more to how our mind and senses work rather than what they do.  The “how” is a subject for science, not philosophy.  Thus, I found the whole edifice of Objectivist epistemology to be erected upon the quicksand of scientific discovery -- i.e., it could disappear as a great falsehood if science determined otherwise.

 

Add to all that my impatience with the fundamentals of philosophy, as opposed to its applications, and you’ll understand my appreciation for a clearly written exposition on the subject such as yours.

 

All that said, I would like to see if I’ve got the gist of your argument:

 

1. Existence exists.

2. Everything that exists has a unique identity.

3. Identity consists of qualities which both distinguish a thing from other things and also establish a thing’s relationship to other things.

3. Those qualities are prior to my awareness of them – i.e., they are metaphysical.

4. I perceive those qualities through my senses.

5. Because any given set of qualities is an identity, I perceive the identity of a thing by perceiving its qualities.

6. Therefore, my perception of identity is not epistemological.

7. Epistemology begins with my comprehension of what I perceive (i.e., what my mind does with the information it has collected), not perception itself.

 

Because reality is not in any manner dependent upon my awareness of any aspect of it, this is what makes sense to me regarding my perception of it.  Unless I can somehow will a hallucination, I cannot alter my perception of what exists around me.  My perception is what it is.  It's metaphysical because it is a strictly mechanical process that exists and operates without regard to my volition (with the exception of choosing to focus my senses upon something).  Therefore, epistemology begins with what I do with the information I perceive; or put another way, epistemology begins where I can start making mistakes. ;)

 

Regards,
Bill

(Edited by Citizen Rat on 6/30, 2:08pm)


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