About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It supports the contention I've long held that Socialism and Fascism are but flip sides of the same ugly coin....

Post 1

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Excellent review, Robert.

Post 2

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 - 6:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I wonder if he notes the fact that the great "progressive" hero of the time was Hearst, and the Hearst papers carried a column by both Hitler and Mussolini, who were regarded by the progressives as on the cutting edge of their social agenda.  Hitler cancelled his column after he became Chancelor - because Hearst wouldn't meet his pay demands.  I think that Mussolini continued to be published up until the entry of the U.S. into the war.

I suggest again that people interested in the actual rise of this movement check out the work of Joel Spring and John Gatto, who have separately tracked down and identified the culprits and conspirators, starting in the very early 1800's and going right up to the present.


Post 3

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 - 7:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It supports the contention I've long held that Socialism and Fascism are but flip sides of the same ugly coin....
Indeed —  the same collectivist coin.

Sam





Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 - 7:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It supports the contention I've long held that Socialism and Fascism are but flip sides of the same ugly coin....

Indeed —  the same collectivist coin.





Would that be this coin?



Reverse of 1938 Mercury Head Dime

(Image from Run Guth's Coin Facts website, www.coinfacts.com)
The "Mercury" (Winged Head Libety) Dime is a coin with a "split" personality.  Read here.)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/09, 7:31pm)


Post 5

Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil Osborn wrote:


I suggest again that people interested in the actual rise of this [fascist] movement check out the work of Joel Spring and John Gatto, who have separately tracked down and identified the culprits and conspirators, starting in the very early 1800's and going right up to the present.


I couldn't seem to find these two on Google, Wikipedia, or the Internet. Any more information available?


Post 6

Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 5:34amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
A question to somebody who has read the book: does he mention that Rand was making this point back in the Kennedy era?  When Goldberg first announced the project at NRO, I sent him a note to this effect, and I'm curious as to whether he followed up.

Post 7

Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 6:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I just heard him on the radio this morning and he mentioned Ayn Rand, so yes he does say so!  He also pronounced her name correctly.

Post 8

Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 6:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
re - John Gatto -
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

re - Joel spring -

http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/education/spring/author.mhtml

(Edited by robert malcom on 1/10, 7:08am)


Post 9

Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 2:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
on Book TV.......

Jonah Goldberg, Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning
Jonah Goldberg explores the political theories of fascism and contends that there are several corollaries between the politics of the left and fascist ideology. Mr. Goldberg presents his book at The Heritage Foundation in Washington, DC.
(Saturday 10 PM, Sunday 3:30 AM and 10 AM, Monday 1 AM ET)


Post 10

Friday, January 11, 2008 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Here's an interview of Goldberg in Salon.com......

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/01/11/goldberg/index.html


he makes very interesting comments about the candidates......

(Edited by robert malcom on 1/11, 7:20am)


Post 11

Friday, January 11, 2008 - 7:24amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bruce Bartlett's Wrong on Race would appear to be a valuable companion piece.

Post 12

Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 5:08amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for the link to the Salon interview, Robert.  My old haunt, the Well, has been a Salon property for about a decade now.  You have some of the old timer libertarians still there, but it is a liberal love fest and discussions tend to be agreements without insight. 

My personal homepage is still on The Well.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 1/12, 5:10am)


Post 13

Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks, Robert.

To avoid unecessary confusion, I would suggest going a level deeper at Gatto's site:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm

This will take you to his major work, which is available online.  Gatto is the reigning guru of the home-schooling movement.  Also, recipient of Teacher of the Year, twice, from (I believe) the Manhatten Publich School District - and then he rejected the whole public school paradigm.

Spring's work was reviewed extensively in one of the Libertarian magazines a couple decades ago.  I think it may have been "Inquiry" (long defunct but a cut above the blatantly anti-Rand "Liberty" in scholarship).  Spring showed the direct unbroken chain of connections from the utopian socialists who took over Harvard in 1820 to the "Progressive" movement of today, and completely documented how our "public education" ("state indoctrination", more like it) was the direst result of a decades-long actual, real-life conspiracy, with members scattered all over the U.S.


Post 14

Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The C-Span BookTV speech of Jonah Goldberg was  well worth seeing - he is a very entertaining speaker who knows his material ......

Post 15

Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The Liberal Fascism show will re-air tonight at 1 a.m (EST).  Also, shows aired on a weekend are often available the next week at http://www.booktv.org/default.aspx.

Post 16

Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I plan to watch the show and may get the book. However, Ayn Rand got to the root of the issue decades ago.
Observe that both "socialism" and "fascism" involve the issue of property rights. The right to property is the right of use and disposal. Observe the difference in those two theories: socialism negates private property rights altogether, and advocates "the vesting of ownership and control" in the community as a whole, i.e., in the state; fascism leaves ownership in the hands of private individuals, but transfers control of the property to the government.
     Ownership without control is a contradiction in terms: it means "property," without the right to use it or to dispose of it. It means that the citizens retain the responsibility of holding property, without any of its advantages, while the government acquires all the advantages without any of the responsibility.
     In this respect, socialism is the more honest of the two theories. I say "more honest," not "better"—because, in practice, there is no difference between them: both come from the same collectivist-statist principle, both negate individual rights and subordinate the individual to the collective, both deliver the livelihood and the lives of the citizens into the power of an omnipotent government—and the differences between them are only a matter of time, degree, and superficial detail, such as the choice of slogans by which the rulers delude their enslaved subjects.
 -The New Fascism: Rule By Consensus (in Capitalism, The Unknown Ideal)



Post 17

Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 12:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes. The socialists rampant in today's world are much smarter than the communists of old. When all means of production are owned by the government there is nobody who can be the scapegoat, but when the means of production are controlled by the government and when the policies fail, as they inevitably do, the rallying cry is always, "But we didn't control the situation enough. The capitalists always found a loophole. In spite of all the billions we've spent on the War on Poverty we must do more!"

(There was once a letter to the editor of our local paper that stated as fact, "There are 30 million starving children in America", to which I replied, "Just show me one and I will rectify the situation.")

Sam


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.