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Post 40

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 11:38amSanction this postReply
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Damn!
All that back and forth with other RoR members (not to mention our own private arguments), and it was as easy as all that?!!!

"Watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!"   (Bullwinkle)
"Oh!...don't know my own strength!"  (Bullwinkle)
Oh, Ed...it will be a great Valentine's Day after all!*


Erica

*(after you tell me the significance of the bracelet made from Rearden metal in AS, and you correctly identify the character who always refers to Howard Roark as "Red" in the Fountainhead, and...)

(Edited by Erica Schulz on 2/13, 11:45am)


Post 41

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 11:40amSanction this postReply
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggghhhhh!!!

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Post 42

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:21pmSanction this postReply
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Damn it Ed, you tricked me! I've got to stop reading my email first! Erica,instead you've got to ask Ed How Hank and Frisco first meet and the name of the restaurant where Eddie and Galt had their Sunday brunch!
(Edited by C. Jeffery Small
on 2/13, 1:25pm)


Post 43

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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???

Post 44

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:38pmSanction this postReply
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Erica, please take the following as evidence that I read the books ...

... after you tell me the significance of the bracelet made from Rearden metal in AS, and you correctly identify the character who always refers to Howard Roark as "Red" in the Fountainhead ...
Erica, let me put it to you in this way:

========================
The bracelet is made of Rearden Metal, and it has many meanings, but I think the main ones are as follows.When Rearden gives it to his wife Lillian at a party she, in front of everyone, despises and insults it as a crude materialistic thing. But Dagny, overhearing that it is made of Rearden's revolutionary metal, immediately asks for it from Lillian, who gives it to her. She puts it on and wears it proudly for the rest of the evening.

So I think it stands for the spiritual meaning of thought and production, and symbolizes Rearden's own estimate of his work. The bracelet's fate points up the very different natures of Dagny and Lillian, and the conflict of Rearden both in the area of work and that of sex.

Mike is a construction worker and as I recall he is the one who calls Roark "Red."
========================


... and, if that still doesn't convince you that I've read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, then let me put it to you in another way:

========================
Bracelet: There are several meanings to that bracelet. Rearden had taken 10 years to develop Rearden metal and the bracelet was the first thing he made out of it. He forged it out of the first heat. It was a gift to his wife, Lillian, as a gift of the best within him. The position of his wife was high honor in his mind, so she was the one to be the beneficiary of all his productive work, especially his best. (He also had misgivings when he thought about Lillian, though.)

As the bracelet also was a chain, Rand used this symbol a lot to denote both bond and shackle. I will let your own imagination run with that one.

Hank gave Lillian the bracelet at a party in front of a lot of people. To him, it was a sacred moment. Lillian mocked it, saying now she could walk around New York with jewelry made out of the same stuff as girders, truck motors, etc. Hank's mother scolded him for not getting her diamond jewelry instead. Everyone called him selfish for doing that.

In a later party scene where Dagny was present, Lillain made a statement that she would trade that bracelet for a common diamond one, but nobody would make the trade. Dagny called her on it and offered her to swap it for her own diamond bracelet. Lillian was forced to trade to keep face. Hank got mighty pissed with Dagny, but this was what made him aware of the fact that Dagny had the hots for him. Later, after the nooky started, he was glad she did that.

The shackle to him (his wife's view) became a bond to him (Dagny's view). This metaphor can go much deeper.


The guy in The Fountainhead who called Roark "Red" was a minor character, a construction worker named Mike. He had a face like a bulldog.
========================


... and, if you're STILL not convinced that I've read these books, well then let me put it to you in still DIFFERENT terms:

========================
When Hank Rearden invented his Rearden Metal, he had links for a bracelet cast from the first pour and presented it to Lillian, his wife, as a tribute to her.  She was a complete anti-life character in the book (although Hank did not understand this at this point in the story) and her mission was to destroy Hank's greatness and bring him down to her level.  She not only didn't appreciate the gift, she wore it to a dinner party, displaying and talking about it as though it were a symbol of both her husband's stupidity in his understanding of human nature, as well as his overblown ego.  At one point she says to someone that she would gladly exchange it for a real piece of jewelry.  Dagny, who at this point in the story was an admirer of Hank but not yet his lover, watched this disgusting display and, finally having had enough, marched over to Lillian, removed her very expensive diamond bracelet and asked her if she would honor her offer.  Lillian was taken aback because she had not anticipated that anyone would be so rude as to follow up on her suggestion, and she didn't want to lose this valuable item which she could use as a weapon against Hank.  However, she was caught in her own trap and had to pretend to willingly exchange the bracelets.  The bracelet acts as a metaphor on many levels as a chain that binds the various characters together, both through love as well as hatred.

 

As far as The Fountainhead goes, I have vague recollections of the references to 'Red', but it was not by any of the major characters.  I believe one of the low-class, but decent and honest construction workers whose company Roark enjoyed may have referred to him as Red, but don't hold me to that.  The reference was not very important in the book, but was a device used to show a friendly familiarity between the characters.
========================

So, you see? I MUST have read these books if I know so much about these fine details!

Right?

:-))

Ed




Post 45

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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Erica, I was just sitting here, thinking, and it just popped into my head that I could actually explain the significance of the bracelet in even DIFFERENT words than before! So just read this:

==========================
The bracelet has dual symbolism:
1.      It represents Dagny’s acknowledgement of Reardon’s great achievement. By wearing it she is making him “visible” – IE. giving him the homage and praise he deserves, but is not getting from his actual wife, or his family.


2.      Secondly, it represents being “chained” – it is an erotic symbol of her willingness to submit to him - as a woman. It symbolizes that the man that created this, is a man worthy of possessing her.

Bear in mind that Dagney is extremely wealthy, and could afford to wear a 10 karet diamond, but instead choose to wear a piece of "steel". Sine the steel on her wrist is the by-product of a man/s great vision and brilliance, to Dagny, it has a greater worth than a diamond.
==========================
 
Now, doesn't that make you want to believe that I've indeed, really, and in all actuality read those books? I mean, it sure sounds like I have!
 
Doesn't it?
 
:-))
 
Ed
 

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 2/13, 1:49pm)


Post 46

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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>For the record, if I had to choose between obliterating all Rand's fiction or her nonfiction, I would elect to keep the fiction.

Or, at very minimum, those speeches...



Post 47

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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Hong Zhang ...

Long time - no see ... good to have your company again.

Regards,

St. George

PS: Do you still carry that straight-razor around ... ha!


Post 48

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 3:26pmSanction this postReply
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All you poor saps, answering the email before reading this column..... lol, as if  Erica wouldn't guess...
[btw - it was the cafeteria of Taggart headquarters where Eddie and Galt met....]


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Post 49

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 4:04pmSanction this postReply
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Oh George, St. George??!!! Ooooh, you are so vain and…elitistic!

 

You really need to realize that other people, the non-producers, non-achievers, self-destructors, life-wasters, whinnies, parasites, or even an ex-street bum could be just as Objectivistic as you, and even a more superior one, so they claim! ;-^

 




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Post 50

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 3:02pmSanction this postReply
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We've been railroaded.

Michael

Post 51

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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In response to all of the trouble that I've put all of you poor folks through -- and especially for, or because of, my dearest, beloved, understanding Erica ...

I ... will ... read ... (the copy she bought me of ...) The Fountainhead!

There, I said it.

Ed
[a man of his word]


Post 52

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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Rev'!

==============
All you poor saps, answering the email before reading this column..... lol
==============

Heeeeeyyyyy! But you answered me, too!!!

;-)

Ed
[This is an instance of the kettle answering back to the pot]

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Post 53

Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
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I totally understand where Ed is coming from. I have a hard time with reading fiction in general myself. I don't know why either it just doesn't grab me like a non-fiction book does.

I seriously doubt you need to read all of Rand's fiction to really "get it". There's so much of her non-fiction that I think explains the Objectivist philosophy quite well. I also agree with Ed that Objectivism is about "discovery" rather than "creation".

I also agree that to hold up Rand's fiction as a test for truly understanding Objectivism gives the philosophy a slight tinge of mysticism. Why does a work of fiction have to be a test for understanding a philosophy rooted in an objective reality? That just doesn't sound right.

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Post 54

Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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I don't read fiction now. The reason? I want another AR novel to read.

Post 55

Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 8:52amSanction this postReply
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Ah yes - the sequel to Atlas Shrugged:  Metatropolis.....

Post 56

Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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(Sigh.)

Damn.

Disclaimer:
I have never personally been the kind of woman who resorts to withholding (what Ted Nugent would call) "poon tango wango"  from her man in order to get him to do what she wants him to do; I always felt it was an unethical tactic that would not truly produce the results one should want anyway.

Clearly, I was right in my original thinking...as my ultimatum has led my beloved Ed down a path of outright trickery...with many of his favorite, most respected people the victims of his deceit!!!

What have I done?

I apologize to the knowledgeable persons who were unwitting pawns in this ruse, (as I am the one who created the situation for it) but Ed...Ed, Ed, Ed.

You need to say sorry to your friends. Now. Right now!

As for this:
I ... will ... read ... (the copy she bought me of ...) The Fountainhead!

There, I said it.

Ed
[a man of his word]

I will accept that. You're officially not cut off.

Erica  :-)

And as for this:
I don't read fiction now. The reason? I want another AR novel to read. (Rodney Rawlings)
Rodney, I felt this way for a long, long, long time...I was only able to start reading any fiction again after I made myself understand that nothing else would ever really compare in the same profound way, and to accept it at that.
I also started writing my own stories again after a long hiatus.  (I realized that I would have to start creating characters that I wished I knew personally; no one on Oprah's Book Club list was going to do it for me, that was certain.)


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Post 57

Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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I was a "witting" pawn--because, as I said in my first troublemaking post, I wasn't sure how long I could hold out. Thanks Ed!

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Post 58

Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 2:58pmSanction this postReply
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I ... will ... read ... (the copy she bought me of ...) The Fountainhead!


Of course - this does not say WHEN it will be done........;-)


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Post 59

Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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> Of course - this does not say WHEN it will be done........;-)

Yeah Ed, what's the holdup? I already finished the copy that Erica gave to me! :-)

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