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Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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Payment in Kind

Government is a human institution. All human action comes at some finite but real cost. Even a minarchist government needs funding . There is a cost to maintain and supply a military, a court system, a police force, and the other necessities of state action, no matter how privatized those entities may be. And monetary funding is not the only requirement for the existence of a government. If no person is willing to fight for the military of a state or serve in the police force, there can be no government. Police and military and even judges and legislators are not altruists. They do not work selflessly, nor under self-sacrificial circumstances. The right to life you imagine you have is not a claim on theirs.

When designing a government it must serve the interests of the governed. But it must also serve the interests of those who govern — and in two senses. Those who govern are humans. They must not be expected to work for free, or at a loss, or counter to their own self interests. And they must have the tools necessary to their professional interest in protecting rights, which itself must be rational and attainable and not self-defeating.

If, for example, the police are to fight force, they must be allowed to use force. The military must be given clear goals and cannot be given impossible goals. They cannot be told to defeat an enemy without upsetting anyone. To ask people to serve in a voluntary military as ill-equipped pawns who will be deployed in a surge only to please one faction then be brought home whether or not their task is accomplished in order to please another faction is to ask them to be sacrificial objects to fickle whims. To ask a politician to leave successful private life and serve as a state governor only to face maliciously brought harassment lawsuits to be defended against at her own expense is to expect only power mad altruists to hold public-office.

Those who protect us from others who threaten us with force must get paid for their services. This was as true during the dimmest of the Dark Ages as it is now, and as it was before the pyramids were built. Amongst savage palaeolithic tribes the men went to war as needed and the women folk supported them. During the Middle Ages the peasants fed the lord and his horses and the lord, presumably, fought to protect the manor. Peasants and savages paid for their protection in kind. Now we pay for our protection in money, which is better for all concerned. But some still pay in kind and are in turn rewarded in kind with pensions and honor and scholarships and citizenship. And there was nothing wrong with the fact that once, according to their circumstances, all men paid in kind.

Our modern military is supported by the most sophisticated system of trade this world has ever seen. No foe can beat it and its backers in a fair fight. It is only when we fail to provide for its other proper professional interests, like a clear plan to follow, and a free hand to fight, that it falters in its mission. In the days when there were wars but there was no money, such self-sabotage was much more rare and the needs of war were known direct. Imagine, if you will, the fate of the peasant, who, when the Mongols were at the gate, said, "You cannot expect me to fight for the state, it would be altruism! You may be lord, but I am no slave!" Were he somehow to live, and were the barbarians repulsed, what do you think his fate would be next time he was caught outside the gate when the horde attacked? Would not his peers refuse to provide the aid he himself held back the day before? Would they not tell him this? "We cannot risk raising the gate. Good luck! And fend for yourself."

The modern state depends upon payment in money from its citizens for the protection that some men offer others. It also requires that those who serve with their labor do so with honor and integrity, which normally they do, at least those in uniform. But it also requires other things from all of us, whether we pay taxes or we serve in the armed forces or not. We each of us must testify honestly in court if called. We must pay attention to the issues at hand in an election, and the integrity of those for whom we vote to put in charge of the men with guns. And, in addition, we must also, so far as we are able and would not ourselves be put in harm's way, report crimes or otherwise act as reasonable first responders when the situation warrants.

This is the necessity of a free state. If we wish to benefit from the protection of the law, we must pay for it, in money or in kind. The need for us to report crimes and to take other reasonable actions is a necessary prerequisite of the police and others doing their jobs. We cannot expect the police to fight crimes we do not report. If you can look out the window when you hear a woman's screams, can you not call the police to (one hopes) prevent a murder? If a car crashes into a tree on your lawn, is it unreasonable for you to take the initiative to turn off the ignition key so that when the police and ambulance arrive they do not need to call for the fire brigade to extinguish an otherwise easily preventable blaze before they act?

If you opt not to act in such situations, perhaps you have not initiated force yourself. But have you not refused to pay in kind for the sort of protections you yourself would want? The state must not initiate force against you. Not even to punish you actively for your inaction. But if you refuse to pay your taxes, do others still have a responsibility to labor to protect you? Are they your slaves? If the legislature determines that in order to redress crime, one must, as a rule, report crimes when one sees them, not under threat of jail, but under threat of reciprocal withdrawal, is this not a reasonable expectation of payment in kind? Does it not warrant a warning that refusal to pay comes with termination of services?

Of course there are details. That is why we have wise judges and cautious legislatures and fifty state laboratories in which to work out, in the real world, how best to implement our principles. One of our principles is that the police are not our slaves. If refusal to report a crime is made grounds for the temporary withdrawal of police protection (in lieu of payment of a fine if you want that protection to remain interrupted) then does the person who refuses to act have grounds to complain if others refuse to aid him in return? Is the withdrawal of services unpaid-for the initiation of force? Of course the alleged conscientious objector's actions cannot be arbitrarily judged. The benefit of the doubt would have to go with the supposedly negligent party. But there are those who would shirk their responsibility to support the state that protects them. Some people undoubtedly do hold themselves apart from the law. And in respect for them as persons they should be treated as they wish, as outlaws.

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Post 1

Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 10:27pmSanction this postReply
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You make a moral argument... in the beginning. But then you argue for political sanctions. No one should disagree that a person that refuses to report an ugly crime when there is little to no cost to do so is morally reprehensible. But a pimp is also morally reprehensible yet until one of them violates an individual right of another, they should not be criminals, or outlaws. That transition from moral to legal sanctions requires a violation of rights or it isn't justified.

The simple fact is that a good life cannot come to us as the product of a perfect government alone. Our society must have a set of values held by the private citizens - values that support and appreciate a good government. These two must go hand in hand - a good government and the people strongly supporting that government - neither can exist long without the other. Most people will report a crime, and so long as that is true, payment in that kind will be rendered enough to make the system work - like tips in a restaurant. If everyone stops tipping, that system will stop working. Without payment in kind, the government would need to pass laws to force the citizens to be good citizens, but it would no longer be a good country, and it will cease to be a good government, and good won't come from force.



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Post 2

Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 11:25pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, your words are deliciously unspecific. Someone could read your post and not have the slightest notion as to what I have said or even what the topic at hand is. (They might even think I am advocating some sort of chiliastic statist absurdity like statutory gay marriage given your platitudinously incontrovertible recognition "that a good life cannot come to us as the product of a perfect government alone.")

But here's the real issue. You said that the "transition from moral to legal sanctions requires a violation of rights or it isn't justified." Your choice of the word sanction is an absolutely marvelous attempt at unspecifity. You want to say "punishment," not the vague, "sanction." Because one can only legally punish someone who initiates force. But you know that I am not advocating punishment, just withdrawal of services for non-payment from someone who has voluntarily chosen not to participate in the necessities of government protection.

So you are stuck with "sanction" which is the broader genus which includes both punish and withdraw. The bottom line is that you want to say that the state is forced (that is, some individual agents of the state are forced, some individuals are forced) to protect those free-riding parasites who refuse to help defend the rights of others in kind even when it is reasonable for them to do so.

You are the one demanding altruism here.

I say let those who don't want to participate in the necessary, reasonable, and minimal mechanisms of the state (in situations like these) be free to protect themselves without the interference of the state in their private affairs.

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Post 3

Thursday, February 18, 2010 - 11:48pmSanction this postReply
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You are in love with your idea of forced good citizenship. "Rat on your neighbor who is smoking some pot or we'll let the world know that you and your property are up for grabs." That concrete example is just as legitimate as the one you made about the person who steps over a bleeding victim to get into his apartment and doesn't bother to call 911. Both are arbitrary examples of what a politician deems to be payment-in-kind that the comrades must obey or they will be denied any protection.

We institute government to protect our rights, not to try to coerce everyone to rise to some politician's level of good citizenry. And the words 'forced' and 'coerce' are valid since a society turns over much of their ability to defend themselves to the government and then depends upon it. And the whole idea of having some citizens and some property that can be violated with impunity, even when they have violated no ones rights... that's abhorrent.

Your argument falls flat because it says what if a great many people are bad citizens, then government will fail. I could just say, what if pigs fly. Or I could say, a society gets the government it deserve.

If the majority of the people are reasonably good citizens, then those few obnoxious, partial parasites are not a problem and certainly not justification for giving the politicians the right to pick and choose who they will protect.

If you see a problem of some significance, go after it where it exists - in the value structure of the bad citizens, and the educational system that encourages those values. Going after them with the heavy hand of government is not the way to do it.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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The word force has a meaning. Withdrawing protection from those who won't pay for it is not the initiation of force. You are dishonest, Steve, to keep insisting otherwise.

Frankly, I don't see what in my proposal you are scared of.

I am not interested in forcing people to be "good." How, exactly, does calling 911 when a crime victim is laying bleeding at your door make you a "good" person? (And, once again, "force" has a meaning, which you evade. To boycott is not to initiate force.) I am happy to allow people to opt out of government protection. You are the one insisting that the state protect them regardless of their wishes not to participate.

I have established the principle that the state is not the unpaid servant of a person who refuses to act as a citizen. How to properly go about that, what the minimum requirements of paying for the state are, is a matter for the legislature. But the principle is valid. (And you don't even contest the principle, you resort to ad hominem questions of my motives.) A person's arguments that he has rights are not a burden on others to protect those rights for him at their expense when he refuses to participate in the reasonable, relevant and minimal mechanisms of public self-defense.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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You said, "You are dishonest, Steve,..." Ted, there is no need to insult.
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You said, "Withdrawing protection from those who won't pay for it is not the initiation of force.

I didn't say that someone didn't pay their taxes. I said that we should not let politicians create good citizenship rules that we must follow at threat of having the defense of our rights withheld. In your statement you have made obedience of their good citizenship rules into a required payment.

When the government takes away the protection that it is duty bound to provide they are complicit in whatever initiation of force results. If you hire a body guard and they don't make an effort to guard you, they carry liability for the harm you suffer in an attack they didn't guard against. And fraud is a form of force as well - the bodyguard took the money then didn't do the work.

You are making politician declared good citizenship rules part of the payment.
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You said, "Frankly, I don't see what in my proposal you are scared of."

When you use that kind of unsupported assumption regarding my motivation it makes me believe that my logic has left you frightened.
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You said, "You are the one insisting that the state protect them regardless of their wishes not to participate."

I am insisting that the state do its proper job - go after rights violators. You are the one who wants politicians to make up a set of rules that define what hoops a person has to jump through before those elites go after a rights violator.
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You said, "I have established the principle that the state is not the unpaid servant of a person who refuses to act as a citizen."

No you haven't. Does a government worker freely choose to work at his or her job in exchange for the consideration being given? Yes, then they are not unpaid.

You say, "A person's arguments that he has rights are not a burden on others to protect those rights for him at their expense..."

That's correct, but for totally different reasons than any you mention. I'm not obligated to do anything to protect you if your rights were being violated. What I give to government isn't to protect your rights. It is to protect my rights. To be more precise, to create an environment more conducive to protecting my individual rights. You say I owe some duty relative to another person and then you try to avoid it being altruism with the twisted logic that acting in some concrete situation where I am neither under attack nor an attacker will change my right to the self-defense which I delegated to the state, in some future situation where I'm under attack.
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Friday, February 19, 2010 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Steve, when you continually attribute motives to me which are neither correct nor relevant to the argument it is dishonest. When you repeatedly equivocate on the meaning of the word "force" and equate leaving someone alone with using force to make them do something you are dishonest. I think my argument and my position is quite clear.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 - 2:41pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I was clear in my description of force - there is no equivocation. If I was mistaken in attributing a motive to you ("...in love with your idea...") then I am mistaken - not dishonest. Since you choose to attack my character, I'll simply not reply to you any further.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 - 6:04pmSanction this postReply
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Ted: "I am happy to allow people to opt out of government protection."

Is there any government service you would not allow people to opt out of? Are you making an anarchist argument here, at least in the limited context of protection?


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Friday, February 19, 2010 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Here we go again with the indignation. You have repeatedly asserted that my motives are to legislate morality (as if wanting people who expect the government to act on their behalf to pay their taxes had anything to do with concern for their motives or their souls) but when I call your repeatedly mischaracterizing my motives dishonest I am the one initiating "insults." I suggest that you are not only wrong as to relative chronology, you are confused as to what the word insult means. Other than making your repeated ad hominem remarks and your un-Objectivist-like equivocating on withdrawal of services versus initiating an attack, you haven't responded to me yet, so your threat not to respond again is hardly alarming.

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Friday, February 19, 2010 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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Someone can opt out of government protection, Jim, by action or default, such as refusing to pay taxes. That doesn't make him exempt from the state's jurisdiction. There is no unilateral secession from a legitimate jurisdiction. He will still be prosecuted if he breaks a law protecting someone's rights.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
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Ted said, “But if you refuse to pay your taxes, do others still have a responsibility to labor to protect you?”

Steve said, “And the whole idea of having some citizens and some property that can be violated with impunity, even when they have violated no ones rights... that's abhorrent.”

I say that if I paid my share for national defense while a neighbor refused to, and we’re under attack, then the troops I paid for had damn well better be in front of my house. Their presence in front of the louse’s house—that would be abhorrent.


Steve: “When the government takes away the protection that it is duty bound to provide they are complicit in whatever initiation of force results.”

Duty bound? To provide services to parasites at the expense and to the danger of those who made it possible?

And who said anything about good citizenship? Just paying for that which one clamors about one’s right to, that’s all.


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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Jon, government is a human institution, not a fairy god-parent that comes into being because you have incanted the proper spells. Arguments do not establish an altrusitic duty upon some people to protect others who refuse to pay for that protection.

It's like the secret of Soylent Green. It's people. The government is people.


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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

The part of Ted's argument I addressed was not about taxes. Non-payment of taxes will get you a jail cell, unless it is a voluntary tax like Rand's idea of a voluntary fee that let's you be a plaintiff in a civil suit arising out of a contract dispute.

The idea of Ted's I addressed was that if you don't follow certain regulations, which would include calling 911 if someone needs help, then you don't get protected.

Take a look at post #1, 2 and 3 in this thread.

In post #2 he links to his concrete example where a person steps over a bleeding victim, ignoring them, doing nothing to call for help. His argument is that certain actions are a required part of the mechanism for a working government. I pointed out that it is giving license to politicians to make up any kind of regulation needed to protect their precious mechanism, like requiring a person to rat on the next door neighbor who is smoking pot. And declaring a person unprotected isn't much different from government requiring them to sew a large yellow star on their clothes knowing it will result in them being beaten and robbed.

Government will never be good at defending rights on the spot or before they are violated. In crime, the police come after the fact and then go after the perpetrator. The purpose is more to protect the rights environment of a society - always looking at the future - putting crooks in prison is primarily to keep them from creating new victims. at the time of an attack, the government's job isn't to distinguish between you and your neighbor and who paid taxes, who didn't or who paid the most. Its job is to destroy the rights violator and thereby reestablish the environment that best represents individual rights.

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Sunday, February 21, 2010 - 12:59pmSanction this postReply
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Omission can rise to commission, such as ignoring the bleeding victim. Knowing who the murderer is but not telling the police because one doesn’t “feel like it” is another.

I agree with Ted on this one, even if not with every example he offers.

There are no duties, so “The Government” cannot be duty bound to provide services to someone who deems taxes theft and pays none. You can give innumerable examples of cases where it nonetheless rationally should do so, i.e., where it would be in the interests of those who do pay. This doesn’t change my mind that in those cases where the ‘theft-dodgers’ could be left in the cold they should be.


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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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Obligations to assist the police in the event of a crime can only arise from voluntary contractual agreements. In Rand's example, one is entitled to protection if one has satisfied the terms of the contract -- if one has paid for it. However, unless it is part of the terms of one's contract that one must assist in the apprehension of criminals (e.g., by calling the police if one is a witness to a crime), one's receipt of protection cannot depend on it. Of course, it would be reasonable to assist the police if one can do so at little or no cost to oneself. However, unless it is specified in the contract, there can be no legal obligation to do so.

- Bill

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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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Bill makes the point very clearly. One does not incur an obligation in the absence of a voluntary agreement - a contract. With no obligation there can be no legal penalty.

That doesn't mean that it is moral to ignore a victim, or to not provide reasonable assistance to the police. I think it is both reasonable and an ethical responsibility, but it does not rise to the level of being a legal requirement.



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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Correct, and neither do the police or does the state to you. Or are the police not people?

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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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The police do have an obligation to fulfill the duties they were hired for. They do have a contractual obligation - their employment contract. They are not slaves - any officer can quit any time they want. If we pay too little we will get poor quality officers. If we pay enough, it is possible to get good officers.

And the state is the organization we created to protect our rights. It is obligated to do that - properly created and properly administered, it can do nothing else. We create a constitution and within those boundaries, we created laws. Within those laws, regulations and policies are formed and from there individual contracts/agreements with state workers are struck.

The police and all state workers are constrained by voluntary contractual arrangement to honor their employment contract. The state is an organization whose charter and mission are defined in its governing documents - and they spell out its obligation to us.

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Monday, February 22, 2010 - 5:46pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, and if the legislature passes a law saying that in order to protect individual rights it is necessary for people to (1) pay minimal taxes (2) to report crimes and (3) to testify in court when necessary, or the state will be unable to protect them, then people who do not do so will have put themselves outside the protection of the state.

Seeing the state as something external to yourself, you would obviously argue that a state where there is no requirement to testify in court or call the authorities when one is aware of a crime is a better situation. You would want one form of constitution. Fine, argue for that in front of the legislature of your state.

I happen to think that we are a society whose government is literally "for, by, and of" the people. I would argue that requiring people not only to pay their taxes, but also to participate as jurors, and witnesses both of crimes and in court is more reasonable and practical. I would argue that in my state where people participate there will be less crime and lower taxes. I would argue in the legislature that people who do not want to do these things can live as they like, but they cannot place a burden upon those of us who do support the state in kind to extend to them protections they refuse to extend to us. I would argue for a different constitution, and if a majority agrees with me then the terms under which citizens will secure government protection will simply be different.

And if you don't like the type of state that I and the majority who agree with me that the price of government is not only paying taxes but also serving in juries, testifying as witness and reporting crimes then you are free not to participate but you will simply have no basis upon which to claim that we who support the state also have a duty to protect you who chose not to participate according to the very reasonable terms we have agreed upon.

I hold that if the legislature is competent to determine what taxes you need to pay if you do not want the state to stop protecting you for non-payment, then it is also competent to determine what other reasonable and minimal services in kind you must perform in order not to have the state stop protecting you for non-payment. Assuming you have a participatory representative constitutional democracy, if it decides that requiring minimal and reasonable payment in kind is the best way to run the state, then it is competent to set those as the terms of government protection. My faction in such a legislature would be the participatory party, and yours would be the mercenary party. We would have an argument, and one side would win it.

I argue for a government for, by and of the people. I think that to earn the protections of a citizen, you have to be a citizen, and that a participatory government is a safer government that a mercenary one. You think that all you should have to do is pay someone. That is quite fine with me if the legislature is willing to set up a state upon those lines, and if you can find a mercenary army who will work for you, and if over time the police and military will not come to see themselves as both separate from and above the citizens. But your willingness to pay taxes and nothing else does not establish a duty upon the state, which is merely other people, to protect you, if a legitimate majority of the state's legislature agrees with me that minimal and reasonable payment in kind is a necessity of a workable system.


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