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Monday, September 7, 2009 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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Good stuff, Ryan.

I like the plain language. Jargon's only good for a select few. But what you write about is important for everyone to know. I've been working on something similar. The libertarian's philosophy is to live and let live. The conservative and liberal's philosophies are to control -- partially enslave -- others for Utopian ideals. The problem with their philosophies is that they involve others as unwilling victims.

The problem with our philosophy is that it requires more plain talk for more people to understand it (i.e., it's inherently good and right and best, etc., but not obviously so).

Ed

p.s. The only critical advice I have for you right now is line spacing. If you're writing online, then complete line breaks (with space in-between) reads best.


Post 1

Monday, September 7, 2009 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Yeah, I originally did all the spacing, but I posted from mac and it was unexpectedly obliterated. Whoops. :)
(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 9/07, 9:36pm)


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Post 2

Monday, September 7, 2009 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
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I will grant almost all of your rhetoric, Ryan, but I have a problem with your use of "conservative." Well, not really you, but let me explain. My parents identify themselves as conservatives. Not as members of the right, but as conservatives. For them this means opposition to excessive taxation, excessive regulation. Support for a strong defensive national policy with the use of the military to support our actual allies and interests. Support above all for constitutional government. They will allow for policy disputes but not violation of the Constitution.

They don't see themselves as crusaders to end public schools and medicaid - but they would not oppose reasonable actions to privatize education and to move charity cases to actual voluntary charity. They are suspicious of "illegal aliens" and "drug dealers." They are not about to crusade for open borders or full legalization. But they do not oppose these things on principle, or support the use of force to continue such policies when force is identified as such.

For example, my father, who long opposed it, now says we ought to let the damn illegal aliens stay so long as they register and pay a reasonable fine (say $5,000) for entry. He sees them as cheaters, and the illegality as a problem, but not foreigners as evil.

The bottom line is that they are sense of life conservatives, not explicit libertarians. Maybe you think they should call themselves libertarians, and maybe they would not deny the title. They support peaceful co-existence, self-sufficiency, constitutionalism and the rule of law. They do not want to outlaw homosexuality, racial miscegenation, the immigration of infidels, abortion in the first trimester, or require school prayer. There are a hell of a lot of decent people in the silent majority who are just like them. They may be philosophically incoherent, and if that's the case, the fault may be theirs. But they do listen well to reason. Is there a point in alienating even them?

What is the rhetorical benefit of defining "conservatism" not as they do but as identical to the extreme racist religious right? Does it help to characterize the debate in the terms of the left? It is the left that wishes to put the conflict in these terms, that the essence of conservatism is white supremacist, militant statist Christian fundamentalism. Should we let them define the terms of the debate?

(Edited by Ted Keer on 9/07, 9:52pm)


Post 3

Monday, September 7, 2009 - 10:10pmSanction this postReply
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Thats a good point. Obviously, "conservative" changes over time based on what one wants to conserve. Most of my family would be categorized as your parents are. However, it appears that the meaning of the term has been stolen from them. You'll notice most of the adjectives you applied (racist and the like) I did not use. I stated a religious motivation, which I believe is generally consistent with "Rightist" or conservative policy. I agree that there are a lot of decent people in the silent majority, but the silent majority is part of the problem precisely because it is silent. In my short experience they stay silent even as things get out of hand, as long as the people using tactics they find objectionable give lip service to fundamentals they don't. I specifically covered the "middle" or moderates to include the soft left and soft right. As to defining conservatives as the left does, I believe their definition is FAR more involved and insulting than mine. The benefit of not defining conservatism as your parents (and mine) do is included in your assessment that they are philosophically incoherent. I am trying to define it as it is currently used, not just by the left. The only attribute I stated was religious motivation for government action. Do you really think that is an unfair characterization of the right?

And how would you say it differently?
(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 9/07, 10:27pm)


Post 4

Monday, September 7, 2009 - 10:29pmSanction this postReply
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My Dad was conservative and not religious at all. Mom is still conservative and she isn't religious at all either. I'd use Ted's phrase and call them sense of life conservatives, and their focus was mostly fiscal. Most of their friends and relatives could be described in the same way.



Post 5

Monday, September 7, 2009 - 10:35pmSanction this postReply
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I drew a distinction between the "right" (religious bigots) and "conservatives" (possibly religious constitutionalists). The word conservative is a definition by non-essential. They support reason and each persons right to earn his own happiness and to act in self defense as their highest principles. They just aren't explicitly philosophical beyond listening to Rush and Beck and wishing they had Clinton back if they couldn't have Reagan again. My father is going to the 9/12 protest in Washington. This will be his first ever demonstration. People like this abound. The loonies make good press. To define these people by their depiction in the press is a bad mistake.

Post 6

Monday, September 7, 2009 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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Again, How would you state this differently, having a fairly good idea at my actual target there?

Post 7

Monday, September 7, 2009 - 10:40pmSanction this postReply
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I know otherwise devout Christians who have stopped going to worship at the cost of extreme personal discomfort because of their disagreement with the liberal preaching since 9/11.

Post 8

Monday, September 7, 2009 - 11:01pmSanction this postReply
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I would say it would be better if they called themselves libertarians, but that in approaching them we should use their own language so long as they don't accept libertarian because of its cookie priorities and fringe. The reasonable people are much more likely to call themselves conservative than right wing, and they will easily adopt the "conservative good" "right-wing bad" distinction if it is made to them. I don't think labels matter so much except that you shouldn't lose allies due to bad first impressions. In speaking to someone who is comfortable calling himself a conservative, I would go along with saying that the essence of conservatism is belief in personal freedom, the constitution and the right to keep what you have earned, and would then explain to such people that they have the right to the historical term classical liberal and even libertarian and that they should resist the attempt of the left to identify them with the bigots of what is called the extreme right. It's always better to define terms in your favor. The approach with philosophically more sophisticated people can be more sophisticated.

Post 9

Monday, September 7, 2009 - 11:53pmSanction this postReply
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Breaking things down into plainer language is defeated when I have to write an extensive explanation on the difference between historical terms, classical liberalism, or that they should technically support libertarianism (which I can't even support for the reasons you stated). I shouldn't be explaining to the vast middle ground between extreme left and extreme right that I didn't really mean them when I named progressives and conservatives. They should be explaining to ME how politicians continue to self identify as conservative or progressive and go on to support the sort of violent policy I'm talking about. Someone outside of the top 10% right wing wacko faction is supporting the self identified conservative politicians that ARE trying to implement all the things that you say all conservatives don't support. The silent majority doesn't sit out every election and let the fringe decide who wins. They either know exactly what they're voting for, in which case my essay rightfully addresses them, or they have no idea what they're voting for, which is even worse and my admonition to THINK is doubly appropriate.
If I say sense of life conservatives not only would no one know what I meant, but I would be doing what I set out not to do, insert O-ist jargon. And if any unconscious conservatives (the closest I can think of to saying sense of life conservatives) wonder at how I got such a bad opinion of conservatism, that might cause them to start thinking about their own values and if the group they identified with without thinking really supports those values.
(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 9/07, 11:58pm)


Post 10

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
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Excellent idea Ryan.

Has anyone noticed the title of this thread needs editing?

Post 11

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 - 10:58amSanction this postReply
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Lol, whoops. What can I say, 2 am writing. Is that even fixable after posting?

Post 12

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 - 12:28pmSanction this postReply
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That's what the magnifying glass is for.

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Post 13

Friday, September 11, 2009 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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I like it Ryan! It is a bold proclamation of your rights, and a just moral judgment of those who would impinge on them. Given that you want to refrain from using overly Objectivist jargon, I assume that your target must be the mainstream of America. With that in mind the only real item I could suggest would be to provide examples of what you are talking about. I think that the average Joe would walk away from your statement saying, “Violence? What the hell is this guy talking about? Nobody is putting a gun to his head!”

You would not have to provide many one for each side would be enough. For the right anything about their views on abortion, gay marriage, drugs, gambling, or prostitution could work. And you could throw a dart at a newspaper and come up with something for the left.

These examples would help solidify your political/ethical ground, and strengthen your statement at the same time. For those of us who have already done our thinking for ourselves these things are obvious. Your audience, however, probably needs their hands held a little.


Post 14

Friday, September 11, 2009 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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Yeah, I really intend to expand out the middle portion of the essay, expand on the violence issue along with the apparent confusion regarding conservatism now. Glad to see you here, man.

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Post 15

Friday, September 11, 2009 - 1:54pmSanction this postReply
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Glad to be here. Thanks! I've been reading stuff here for a while, but never signed up.

Post 16

Friday, September 11, 2009 - 5:11pmSanction this postReply
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Welcome to RoR, Lee.

Ed


Post 17

Friday, September 11, 2009 - 8:10pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you very much. I am very happy to be here.

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