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Friday, March 7, 2008 - 5:02amSanction this postReply
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Interesting, tho the cry of 'reductionism' is, I submit, itself a straw dog, an attempt at claiming the simplicity of physics as the by-all and end-all of biological complexity - instead of recognising biological processes are culminations of physics in a 'speedier' enviroment....

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Friday, March 7, 2008 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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I agree, Robert.  As for physics being the “be-all and end-all”---Physicists are among those who do not necessarily think physics has all the answers.  For example, here’s a quote from an expert in the field as to the current state of our knowledge about particle physics:

 
"…the Planck scale is a very, very long extrapolation from our current knowledge.
 
"On this topic, we have so little direct knowledge that there are few hints to guide the development of theories, and even fewer constraints upon those theories. Consequently, there are several different families of theories that aim to produce a consistent theory of quantum gravity... At the moment, however interesting they may be, these theories are speculative. Perhaps one of them will turn out to be a good, useful theory, and the others will fall. At the moment, we cannot put them to the test.
 
"Today, we remember Democritus for speculating on the existence of atoms and Aristachos for proposing that the Earth went around the sun. The ancient Greek philosophers proposed so many ideas that it is perhaps not too surprising that some of them turned out to be consistent with facts discovered much later."


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Friday, March 7, 2008 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
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In taking this viewpoint, Schwartz explicitly departs from Ayn Rand’s position that the self is identical to the mind. He sees this as contradictory to her ethical principle of rational self-interest.
It is true that Rand does define the "self" as the mind -- "the faculty that perceives reality, forms judgments, chooses values," ("Selfishness Without a Self," in Philosophy: Who Needs It, p. 50), but I think that what she is referring to here is the conscious or introspective self, not the self in the sense of the entire person. When one talks of giving oneself a bath, one doesn't mean giving one's mind a bath.
“In Rand’s framework,” he states, “it surely does not mean to live for one’s mind;…” It means, instead, to live for the whole organism—mind and body. It is a fascinating thesis, although I have to take issue with his reference to Gilbert Ryle’s alleged “ghost in the machine.” By adopting this phrase, Schwartz opens himself to charges of reductionism.
I don't follow you. Doesn't Ryle's concept of the "ghost in the machine" refer to a spirit that does not depend for its existence on a physical body? I am reminded of Rand's statement in Galt's speech:

“To exist is to possess identity. What identity are they able to give to their superior realm? They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is. All their definitions consist of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say – and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge – God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not acts of defining but of wiping out.” (Emphasis added, Atlas Shrugged, p. 1035)

Isn't the idea that "soul is non-body," precisely what Ryle is referring to by his phrase "the ghost in the machine"?
[Schwartz] then adds more fuel to that fire. While distinguishing self from mind, he advocates discarding the whole notion of any “immaterial, ontologically independent” aspect of our being. He comes dangerously close to throwing out the baby with the bath water, discounting the mind in the process of differentiating it. Human consciousness is, in fact, not only immaterial, but—at least to some unknown extent—ontologically independent. This does not qualify it as in any sense a “ghost.”
On the contrary, one's mind or consciousness is not ontologically independent of one's body -- at least not according to Rand. If the mind were ontologically independent of the body, it wouldn't require a body in order to exist. The mind is an aspect of a physical organism, because consciousness requires a brain and sense organs in order to exist and function. It requires a means of perception and cognition. Eliminate the brain and sense organs and you eliminate the mind. To think is a mental operation that is simultaneously an operation of the brain, just as to see is a visual experience that is simultaneously a function of the eye. Just as the act of sharpening one's vision isn't ontologically independent of the organ of sight -- the eye -- so the act of sharpening one's mental focus isn't ontologically independent of the organ of thought -- the brain. Just as one cannot see without eyes, one cannot think without a brain. The mental depends on the physical.

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer on 3/07, 7:00pm)


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Post 3

Friday, March 7, 2008 - 11:57pmSanction this postReply
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William,

 

I think that what she is referring to here [as the self] is the conscious or introspective self, not the self in the sense of the entire person. When one talks of giving oneself a bath, one doesn't mean giving one's mind a bath.

 

I’m not sure how you reconcile these two statements.  The second statement seems to defend the thesis of ‘self as organism,’ not self as purely “conscious or introspective.”  Perhaps you mean that Rand did not intend for her use of the word self to be exclusive to one aspect of a person (i.e., consciousness).  If so, then I think she should have spelled that out.

 

Doesn't Ryle's concept of the "ghost in the machine" refer to a spirit that does not depend for its existence on a physical body?

Isn't the idea that "soul is non-body," precisely what Ryle is referring to by his phrase "the ghost in the machine"?

 

Yes.  Ryle was a radical behaviorist whose view of mind was comparable to the epiphenomenalism of the reductionists.  He denied that there was any such ghost and denigrated the significance of all mental behavour as superfluous.  By endorsing that terminology, Schwartz seems to be implying that he agrees with Ryle's view of the nature of mind.  This may have just been an unfortunate turn of phrase by Schwartz. 

 

On the contrary, one's mind or consciousness is not ontologically independent of one's body…

 

The key issue here is what is meant by the term “independent.”  Independent can mean simply the capacity to stand alone, but it can also mean the quality of not being governed or controlled by something else.  Such distinctions are crucial when discussing the mind-body connection, because so little is understood scientifically about what is really going on.  Understanding the physical workings of the brain has given us little scientific knowledge about the fundamental nature of mind or consciousness.   

 

I agree with what you say in your last paragraph about the mind being unable to exist without the brain.   But Schwartz says that the mind is neither “immaterial” nor “ontologically independent.”  Taken together, that again implies reductionism.  Thoughts are clearly immaterial, and volition endows the mind with some degree of independent control over its mental operations.  I do consider the mind to be both immaterial and ontologically distinct, although not an independent substance in the Cartesian sense.

 


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Saturday, March 8, 2008 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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reply to $3

Hardin writes:

I agree with what you say in your last paragraph about the mind being unable to exist without the brain. But Schwartz says that the mind is neither “immaterial” nor “ontologically independent.” Taken together, that again implies reductionism. Thoughts are clearly immaterial, and volition endows the mind with some degree of independent control over its mental operations. I do consider the mind to be both immaterial and ontologically distinct, although not an independent substance in the Cartesian sense.


I reply:
My word! Material processes (electrochemical) with immaterial causes. Even immaterial electromagnetic fields have material causes (charged particles in motion). Will wonders never cease?

My thoughts are electro-chemical processes. I have used the best technology available on the planet to verify this. Three PhDs in neurobiology have verified this with me. I and they have looked in my head. MRI, CAT, PET and EEG scans. There is no ghostly mind there. My "mental operations" are brain operations, every last one. They are good enough to score 140 on the Wechsler Belview scale. I have no mental states. Not a single one.

Perhaps you have a ghost in your machine. I am in no position to deny your claim since I have no access to what is happening in your head or glandular system. I on the other hand, AM THE MACHINE. I am my brain. I have empirical evidence. What independently witnessed empirical data do you have to support your view? Do tell, please. I am all ears.

Bob Kolker

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Saturday, March 8, 2008 - 4:50pmSanction this postReply
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The key issue here is what is meant by the term “independent.” Independent can mean simply the capacity to stand alone, but it can also mean the quality of not being governed or controlled by something else. Such distinctions are crucial when discussing the mind-body connection, because so little is understood scientifically about what is really going on. Understanding the physical workings of the brain has given us little scientific knowledge about the fundamental nature of mind or consciousness.

I agree with what you say in your last paragraph about the mind being unable to exist without the brain. But Schwartz says that the mind is neither “immaterial” nor “ontologically independent.” Taken together, that again implies reductionism. Thoughts are clearly immaterial, and volition endows the mind with some degree of independent control over its mental operations. I do consider the mind to be both immaterial and ontologically distinct, although not an independent substance in the Cartesian sense.
It is my view that consciousness not only does not exist independently of the brain, but also does not function independently of the brain -- that a mental action, an act of thought, is simultaneously a physical action of the brain. Otherwise, a person's ability to think and to reason would exist independently of the structure and function of his brain, which we know is false. One's ability to think and to reason crucially depends both on the kind of brain that one possesses and on its physical health and condition. So, when one chooses to think, one is simultaneously initiating both a mental and a physical action. The mental action is the brain's operation viewed introspectively, and the physical action is the mind's operation viewed extrospectively.

The best analogy I can come up with, although it is by no means perfect, is that of "the morning star" and "the evening star" as two appearances of the same planet, Venus; or of thunder and lightening as two manifestations of the same electrical discharge. In other words, the operation of the mind and that of the cerebral cortex are two sides of the same ontological coin.

- Bill



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Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 2:30amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

 

It is my view that consciousness not only does not exist independently of the brain, but also does not function independently of the brain -- that a mental action, an act of thought, is simultaneously a physical action of the brain. Otherwise, a person's ability to think and to reason would exist independently of the structure and function of his brain, which we know is false. One's ability to think and to reason crucially depends both on the kind of brain that one possesses and on its physical health and condition. So, when one chooses to think, one is simultaneously initiating both a mental and a physical action. The mental action is the brain's operation viewed introspectively, and the physical action is the mind's operation viewed extrospectively.

 

I am not really certain whether we have a disagreement here or not.  Here’s a comment about this issue I made on another thread:

 

Psycho-neural identity theories which posit a one-to-one correlation between mental events and neural events in the brain do not “prove” that the mental is equivalent to the physical—they establish the opposite conclusion.  To correlate phenomena is to establish the existence of separate phenomena, so they cannot be identical.  Psycho-neural parallelism may well have some scientific validity—but it is obviously only a step in the direction of acquiring a full understanding of the operations of consciousness.

 

…[Your] view of the brain does not account for the phenomenon of volition.  Unless there is something more than status quo physics and chemistry involved here, all mental events would require some type of antecedent stimulus.  Are you prepared to dispense with the concept of free will?  Because if you are, you will also need to dispense with any claim for the validity of your beliefs, since—based on present knowledge--all the contents of your thinking must be dictated by prior physical-neural events.  In other words, since your mind is not in your control, neither are any of your conclusions.

 

You say that “when one chooses to think, one is simultaneously initiating both a mental and a physical action…”    I think that conclusion requires some speculation on your part.  I would contend that we don’t know what precisely is going on when we initiate a mental act.  To say that something “physical” is going on strikes me as reductionist.  Something entirely beyond our present understanding of the physical world may be involved in the generation of thoughts, and that something needs to be able to account for volition. 

 

This relates to another comment (here) on the same thread:

 

David Kelley had some terrific insights on this in a lecture entitled “The Nature of Free Will.”  The following is my paraphrase of some of what he had to say:  

 

Consciousness emerges as a control mechanism at a certain stage of development within a biological nervous system, to preserve an organism’s ability to function as a unit—i.e., to deal with external factors by the standard of the organism’s survival needs.  With man, the same problem breaks out at the level of consciousness itself.  The conceptual mind is in danger of being pulled in numerous different directions at once, as man is confronted with the need to make choices in the light of an open-ended amount of knowledge.  To preserve his capacity to function as a unit—i.e., to survive—man was in need of a higher level control mechanism—the capacity to focus.  Within a complex system of neural organization, such as the human brain, an event could easily be the product both of antecedent factors (i.e., evolution) and other simultaneous factors operating at higher and lower levels of this organization.  The capacity to focus (“free will”) is a product of upward causation (evolution) and constrained by it, but the choice to focus is an instance of pure downward causation—of conscious activity directly affecting neural activity.

 

At this point, we know little or nothing about the factors involved in mediating "downward" causation.  I think that there is good basis for arguing that something nonphysical must have some limited capacity to control the physical if we are to make scientific sense of volition.

 

 

 


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Friday, March 14, 2008 - 6:19pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis wrote, Psycho-neural identity theories which posit a one-to-one correlation between mental events and neural events in the brain do not “prove” that the mental is equivalent to the physical—they establish the opposite conclusion. To correlate phenomena is to establish the existence of separate phenomena, so they cannot be identical. Psycho-neural parallelism may well have some scientific validity—but it is obviously only a step in the direction of acquiring a full understanding of the operations of consciousness.

Mental acts and their cerebral counterparts are different aspects of the same phenomenon. We know that thinking is as much a cerebral activity as it is a mental one, because it depends on and is affected by the physical condition of the brain in the same way that seeing depends on and is affected by the physical condition of the eyes. That doesn't mean that one isn't in control of one's thinking processes -- that one doesn't initiate them -- but it does mean that thinking is performed via the use of one's brain, just as seeing is performed via the use of one's eyes. Just as one cannot see without the action of the visual cortex, so one cannot think without the action of the cerebral cortex.

…[Your] view of the brain does not account for the phenomenon of volition. Unless there is something more than status quo physics and chemistry involved here, all mental events would require some type of antecedent stimulus. Are you prepared to dispense with the concept of free will? Because if you are, you will also need to dispense with any claim for the validity of your beliefs, since—based on present knowledge--all the contents of your thinking must be dictated by prior physical-neural events. In other words, since your mind is not in your control, neither are any of your conclusions.

Insofar as we have free will, its exercise necessarily involves the initiation of an event that is simultaneously both mental and physical. To initiate an act of thought IS to initiate an action of the cerebral cortex, for there are no mental events that are not simultaneously cerebral. The act of thought is not an antecedent cause of the action of the cerebral cortex, any more than the action of the cerebral cortex is an antecedent cause of the act of thought. The two processes occur simultaneously; they are two sides of the same ontological coin.

Nor does the compatibilist view of determinism imply that one's mind is not in one's control; the doctrine simply says that one's choices, including the choice to think or not to think, are motivated by one's values. The fact that one chooses to think because one wants to understand something does not mean that one is not in control of one's thinking; it simply means that the control is based on one's values -- on one's desire for knowledge.

You say that 'when one chooses to think, one is simultaneously initiating both a mental and a physical action…' I think that conclusion requires some speculation on your part. I would contend that we don’t know what precisely is going on when we initiate a mental act.

We know scientifically that thinking is an act performed by the cerebral cortex and one that cannot take place without it. We know that our ability to think suffers when that part of the brain is diseased, injured or destroyed. This is not speculation; it is a well-established fact.

To say that something 'physical' is going on strikes me as reductionist.

I'm not reducing the mental to the physical, any more than I'm reducing a coin to only one of its sides. I'm saying that the mental and the physical are two sides of the same coin -- two sides of the same organic process.

- Bill



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Friday, March 28, 2008 - 3:42pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Dennis, for such a respectful and fair treatment of my article.  I was pleased to learn of the existence of your piece from a friend, and I enjoyed reading it and reading the discussion that has ensued.

I wish to respond to a few of your points.

First, I agree wholeheartedly: my choice of the phrase "ghost in the machine" was poor.  I suddenly realized this several weeks ago, believe it or not, when I read my article in a physical copy of JARS for the first time. 

The image I originally had in mind, associated with that phrase, was that of a ghost, say, sitting on a tractor and driving it around, rather than that of an ineffective and epiphenomenal ghost inhabiting a self-propelling tractor — which, it is now clear to me, is the actual meaning implied by the phrase "ghost in the machine."

So, mea culpa on that one. 

But, that said, the purpose of my use of the analogy — whatever variety of ghost — was to describe a way of conceiving the self that I advocate against, not for.  It never occurred to me that this could have been misinterpreted.  But perhaps you understood me to be accepting the man/machine analogy, and only disputing the "ghost" element?  

That might make sense, given my next point: 

You attribute to me the view "that the mind is neither 'immaterial' nor 'ontologically independent.'" 
 
Let me state as emphatically as possible: I never advance this view in my paper, and I never would advance this view in any context. 
 
(Nor do I, or would I, ever "[advocate] discarding the whole notion of any 'immaterial, ontologically independent' aspect of our being," as you claim.) 

What I caution against in my paper is conceptualizing the self as an immaterial, ontologically independent entity.  Not the mind.  
 
You see the difference?
 
On this subject, there is an important parenthetical I included in my paper for the benefit of those who might be inclined to read reductionism into my words.  Here is that passage, including the parenthetical:
 
"A human being is a coherent unity of mind and body, yet this way of stating the fact still leaves 'mind' and 'body' conceptually separate.  The concept organism conceptually integrates these two facets of human nature in a graceful and unit-economical way.  (It does so, I might add, without necessarily implying that mind and body are indistinguishable or that we may collapse one into the other; it simply implies that, for the human being, the mind and the body function together as a single, integrated, organized, system.)"
 
Does my emphasis of that parenthetical make my viewpoint more clear?
 
I would only add one additional clarification: while I would never advocate, in toto, the view you attributed to me, I would advocate one part of that view, as worded, in that I would not describe the mind as "ontologically independent."  But actually, this is an issue of word choice more than substance.  For I would describe the mind as possessing agency — and since you are using "independent" to mean "the quality of not being governed or controlled by something else" (a wonderful clarification), I conclude that you and I are, substantively, in hearty agreement here. 

Finally, to end on a more light-hearted note, I have one last comment. 
 
While I did intend to be provocative in the conclusion of my article, and enjoyed your characterization of me as getting "carried away," I did not, in fact, "[cite] Rand’s philosophical error of identifying the self with the mind as the 'bug in the system' responsible for an excessive tendency toward intellectualism and moralism among Objectivists."
 
This would have been both an overstatement, and an expression of a kind of philosophic determinism that would be anathema to me.

What I did do was to describe Rand's error as "a" bug in the system, and to describe that bug, not as responsible for, but as "intertwined with," the tendencies within Randian culture toward intellectualism and moralism.
 
Small difference in words, but a big difference in meaning.  Particularly in this context.  
 
And, with that said, thank you again, Dennis!  I have enjoyed this opportunity to clarify some of what I wished to communicate in my article.

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Friday, March 28, 2008 - 5:16pmSanction this postReply
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In the originating article Dennis Hardin writes:

You alone are you—and that quality of selfhood is like a center of being totally unlike any other experience you could ever have. It is like a light from within, a flame that flares and rekindles but never goes out completely. The fact that I have to resort to metaphor underscores how little science presently knows about what the so-called “self” really is.


And I ask:

Given that resort to metaphor how do you expect to make any empirically testable, objectively verifiable assertion about your self (or is it "self"?)?

How can you distinguish your introspections from day dreaming or hallucination?

That is why I don't introspect much beyond thinking and recalling. It is a waste of my time. The closest I come to introspection is when I analyze my errors.

Bob Kolker


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