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Post 0

Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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The Powell story rates a "partly true" from About.com's Urban Legends.  I doubt that the others would rate even that high.

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Post 1

Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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This is a nice collection of pro-American anecdotes. The concluding remark suggests, “If you are proud, pass this on!” I don’t care for the sentiment expressed there.

I didn’t design the incredible aircraft carrier which was of help in the tsumani. I didn't take part in liberating France in World War II. So any pride felt by those accomplishments does not belong to me. There is a thin line between patriotism and tribalism, and taking second-hand pride in the accomplishments of others is a clear indication that one has veered towards the latter.

The America-haters are equally tribalistic. The difference is that instead of listing instances wherein the American government acted on principle and achieved positive results, they’ll list times when it acted without principle to disastrous consequences. Then the conclusion is that you should be ashamed.

If one is going to feel proud of their country for its positive attributes, it is only sensible to be ashamed of its faults.

I think the slavery practiced in the first century of our nation was appalling. Am I ashamed of it? No, because I had nothing to do with it. I think the role the U.S. played in World War II was valiant, but the pride does not belong to me.


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Post 2

Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 3:05pmSanction this postReply
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Following up on Eric's remarks, I have always been proud of the American foundation of individualism, the articulation of unalienable rights, the commitment to free enterprise and the concept of rigid constitutional limits on the power and scope of government. However, after the last eight years of accelerated erosion in our civil liberties coupled with the consequential fallout that will inevitably occur as a result of this past election, I am no longer proud to call myself an American. There is very little left of the principles that once made this such a great country. At this point, there are almost no limits on the breadth of the government's reach. It is now able to invade our privacy without even the pretense of a warrant. It can lock people away indefinitely without so much as a charge. It commits torture directly and indirectly through rendition. It completely controls the money supply, inflating it at will and distributing those manufactured funds to whomever it favors for whatever purpose it deems desirable. It taxes its citizens in any arbitrary manner and to any arbitrary degree it sees fit, without limitation. It can impose wage/price controls any time it likes as Nixon did in the 1970s. It now nationalizes entire industries, dictating how those businesses will operate as it has begun to do with the financial and automobile companies. It controls the educational system, brainwashing generation after generation in its causes such as environmentalism. Through education, example and its various policies and programs, it has effectively destroyed initiative, creating a generation that combines helplessness with the expectation of entitlement. It can re-institute the military draft at any time and by extension, can institute the national service initiative that BO favors, effectively making us all slaves to the state. All this and more is done without the slightest indication that there will be a national uprising of protest against these measures. In fact, just the opposite occurs with BO hailed by the majority as its great savior.

Yes, there are still many individuals whom I admire. But when the country is viewed as a whole, it has changed to such a massive degree that what was once simple disappointment in its leadership and direction has now transformed into disgust. I can appreciate the sentiment behind the little stories which attempts to portray the US in a favorable light in contrast to the denigration that is typically heaped upon it by others. Yes, we are often attacked for our virtues and this practice needs to be identified and challenged vigorously. But I think it is time to face the face the fact that the virtues we recognize as typically American are historical artifacts. Let's not forget them, but we should also not confuse them for our present situation. We are a sinking ship and we didn't just pop a rivet - we've hit an iceberg. It is time to get angry and it is time to fight back.

As Eric points out, we have no reason to feel shame at the historical failures of our ancestors. But in the same light we cannot claim to be proud of what the founding fathers accomplished. It is only our personal actions that can give us pride. And we are moving towards a time when real action is called for to put a stop to the current trend and begin to move us back towards individual freedom.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 3

Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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I think it is time to face the face the fact that the virtues we recognize as typically American are historical artifacts" - Jeff

It is sad to recognize how true that is.
----------

On a side note, we should not be so quick to label the emotions of pride or shame as inappropriate. I suspect that we often feel "pride" in an accomplishment of another that has nothing to do with who gets credit. It is a different kind of pride than we would feel for our own accomplishment and I'd say it is more akin to a response to art - a positive feeling is generated in seeing concretized outside of ourself an expression of our own key values. I have a sense of pride for historical accomplishments that are American that I had nothing to do with, but that represent in some fashion my most important values. It is really a case of needing two different words - one of which is for personal accomplishments only. And I feel, not shame, but a kind of dismay and almost like embarrassment for some of what our government is doing and this too is not my doing. I have no connection, except that it is my country and I know it could do better.

We just need more words in this area, because it is right to have these feelings. However, using those feeling to generate or celebrate a tribal kind of connection, blind patriotism or unreasoning hate would be a different story.

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Post 4

Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
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I enjoyed these short stories. I feel personal pride that the values of the American culture that made it the strongest most productive and creative society the world has ever seen are my values. A gift from my culture to me, passed on by my family: hard work and achievement, never to expect anything not created by your own hands or earned by your own labor. The measure of a man was how hard he was willing to work, both with his mind and his hands. Be fair to all people, bully no one, stand up to bullies, never hit a women because only cowards hit women. Those values may die with me but to that day I will feel proud. I do not consider that tribalism.

Post 5

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 12:52amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

I believe that I understand what you are saying. Besides being an individual and taking pride or feeling shame in ones own accomplishments and actions, we also align ourselves with various groups, and in so doing, we also experience emotions associated with the accomplishments and actions of those groups.

For example, we marry and in becoming a team with another person, we partake in and benefit from the actions of our spouse, so it is natural to experience corresponding emotions. While I do not find it typically necessary to analyze every emotion I experience in such detail, when thinking about this example of a spouse, I would say what actually occurs when I view my wife in a favorable light is a feeling of tremendous respect for her accomplishment while at the same time having an accompanying feeling of pride which is reserved for my self-evaluation in having chosen someone of that caliber as my partner. I believe that the same thing is true for other associations we make through the selection of a job, organizations we may join and for the country of our citizenship. We often experience a mixture of emotions at one time, and can experience many powerfully positive or negative emotions when contemplating the actions and achievements of others, but I still believe that pride and shame are something that can only be experienced in relation to oneself and only properly in relation to one's own acts. Would you agree with this?

Regards,
--
Jeff

P.S. In post #4 Mike describes various values that were a tradition of his culture, country and family that he has adopted, practices and from which he experiences pride. Mike, in relation to the point I raise above, would you say your feeling of pride is a response to your personal practice of these virtues, or do you think that you experience pride simply in the contemplation of their practice by others?


(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 12/11, 12:58am)


Post 6

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 1:32amSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the thinking in the preceding comments.

 

Some related thoughts: A, B, C

 

Some feelings of pride in an organized collective accomplishment are due to one’s having been a contributor to it and due to one’s extended personal identity. The latter is discussed by Antonio Damasio and by Charles Taylor.


Post 7

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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Stephen, thanks for all those links.  The story of the photonic band gap was well worth the effort.  I printed out the authors and titles for the two books about the self. 

The vignettes are like any work of art: you see in them what you bring to them.  Just for one, aircraft carriers were not constructed for mercy missions, and if they were, Objectivists would be at the head of the mob to shut them down, complaining about the evils of altruism.  But, there are several other ways to interpret the story. 

I don't travel much, a couple of business trips to Canada, that's about it.  We lived in Las Cruces for 18 months and never went to Mexico.  In January 2000, I worked for a newspaper that sent me to Basel.  Actually, it was a nice little place, and I truthfully felt a twinge of homesickness for it about a week later, when I was sitting at my desk. Basel would be a great place to retire to -- if I were ready to retreat from life.  But for all of that, there was a special sense of safety, not physical, but metaphysical, when I deplaned in New York, walked through the gate, flashed my passport and the customs guard said, "Welcome home, sir."

That sense of "home" is universal and subjective.  One home is not better than another, though circumstances take us away, sometimes permanently, to happier environments.  In my neighborhood, growing up, there were a lot of DPs (displaced persons; stateless refugees from World War II), as well as earlier immigrants.  No two ways about it: the old country was just plain dopey and American was cool.  I was a guest at a faculty party a couple of weeks ago and an old woman asked me, "What kind of name is that?"  I said, "It's American.  We're all Americans here."

No one else at that party would have identified John D. Rockefeller and Andrew Carnegie or Donald Trump and Martha Stewart as examples of what makes America great.  Being "American" means different things to different people, depending on who you are inside.


Post 8

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I agree with you that we need more words to describe the emotions associated with pride.  You point out that the feelings of respect, awe, and gratitude that emerge when we consider the accomplishments of our forefathers is an honest emotion, and that it is often referred to as "pride."  I agree with you both in that the feelings are warranted and that we need a distinct way to describe them.

Without such a distinction, the true meaning of pride is diluted.  I've written more about this here: http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Eric/Pride_Parade.shtml 

Eric


Post 9

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

You said, "I still believe that pride and shame are something that can only be experienced in relation to oneself and only properly in relation to one's own acts. Would you agree with this?"

Yes, I agree with that and I think your post described what is happening when one feels "pride" in the acts of others. There is a positive feeling at focusing on something one values, there is respect for the person or people that are responsible for acts, and their is pride in that part of one that holds those beliefs. It is a little like psychological visibility - you are able to see an aspect of yourself - your beliefs, for example - reflected in the actions of others, even if long dead. And you get to feel a simple pleasure of contemplating something you value.

So, I think the part that is truly pride is just the feeling from contemplation of ones own values or beliefs, but it is triggered by a focus on the acts of others who exemplify the beliefs and there is a pleasure just from seeing their success - and that pleasure combines with the pride. It becomes a single feeling. It seems like it is attached to those actions of others because we don't see how it is a sympathetic vibration of our own values - and we call it pride. And it is, but it is just a different kind.

Jeff, in the question you raised for Mike, I'd point out that the intensity with Mike has chosen some very specific values, and the integrity he shows towards them, would make it possible to feel them much more strongly in reading those stories. His pride is a reflection of living his values more strongly - a just reward for being true to one's principles.

Post 10

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
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Eric,

Thanks for the link to your article. I can see a range of emotions at play in the situations you describe. There would be some people, say in a gay pride march, who really were feeling something akin to pride. It would be a pride that they were actively valuing themselves instead of staying in the closet and accepting the culture's negative moral judgments. But others, long out of the closet, are marching as if there were a badge of achievement being handed out for marching or that pride only need a march or a willingness to associate with this or that group. That of course is wrong.

I agree that pride should be attached to an accomplishment - something voluntary, something personal. It would not have to be productive, in the sense of career or making money - it could be an achievement of character or a psychological achievement - but pride must be earned. There has to a choice and there has to be effort and risk of failure. I agree with your analysis that many people are attempting to hide from this or that personal shame by attempting the impossible - feeling pride in some tribal association.

A person should feel pride in who they are, but it has to be earned by becoming someone worthy of that pride by doing things deserving of pride.



Post 11

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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A person should feel pride in who they are, but it has to be earned by becoming someone worthy of that pride by doing things deserving of pride.
Well said!


Post 12

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:56amSanction this postReply
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Rand on PRIDE

 

Notes

 

Ayn Rand's Normative Ethics

Tara Smith

 

“The last of rational egoism’s major virtues is pride, more often considered a vice than a virtue. This is the subject of Chapter 9. Rand understands pride as moral ambitiousness, an energetic dedication to being one’s best. Pride is not a disposition to boast, to impress, or to display superiority to others; nor is it simply the feeling of satisfaction with oneself that typically follows some accomplishment. In Rand’s view, pride is a forward-driving commitment to achieve one’s moral perfection.”

 

That is to say, there is something partly overlapping the usual concept of pride, for which this philosopher, Ayn Rand, will confine her term pride. Prof. Smith’s presentation of this fine concept is excellent and true to Rand. (Compare a, b, c)


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