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Post 20

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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Joel wrote,
What I mean is that you may have genuine knowledge, but you are never "100% sure" wether it is *real* knowledge.
But then it can't be genuine knowledge, can it, because genuine knowledge is 100% certainty, right? We have to remember here that the epistemological default position is full certainty without which the concept of UN-certainty would have no meaning. Uncertainty is the negation of certainty, and that negation would make no sense without a prior understanding of what is being negated - without a prior grasp of what it means to be certain.

- Bill

Post 21

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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Such logic chopping tricks are nice to score points, but they don't adress the real issues.
Cal please feel free to point out the unaddressed "real issues."

Joel Català


Post 22

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:09amSanction this postReply
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genuine knowledge is 100% certainty, right?
No 100% certainty awareness requirement, there. That is, under the definition that I embrace.

Joel Català


(Edited by Joel Català on 6/21, 11:15am)


Post 23

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan, I know that Objectivism deals with "axiomatic concepts." 

But be aware that this poses a big problem to Objectivism, as those "axiomatic concepts" are inimical to the Objectivist "tabula rasa" mind.

Joel Català
Joel, I disagree. "Axiomatic concept" does not imply that one is born with the knowledge of such a concept. From the first instance of "perception" (the moment a child begins to percieve objects instead of random senses), they are implicitly aware of the concept of identity, long before they can conceptually  grasp it.

I am not an expert on epistemology. I will listen to any arguments you can present that will disprove my understanding, however you gave no evidence to support your claim.


Post 24

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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 Jonathan, a key point is that a tabula rasa mind cannot "choose to think", because thinking requires concepts.

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/21, 11:30am)


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Post 25

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan, I know that Objectivism deals with "axiomatic concepts."

But be aware that this poses a big problem to Objectivism, as those "axiomatic concepts" are inimical to the Objectivist tabula rasa mind --also known as "blank slate."
The term "blank slate" simply refers to the fact that the human mind can have no knowledge of reality prior to any contact with it - that the mind is blank before it perceives reality. This fact does not contradict Objectivism's axiomatic concepts. "An axiomatic concept is the identification of a primary fact of reality, which cannot be analyzed, i.e., reduced to other facts or broken into component parts. It is implicit in all facts and in all knowledge. It is the fundamentally given and directly perceived or experienced, which requires no proof or explanation, but on which all proofs and explanation rest." (Rand, ITOE, p. 55) Existence, identity and consciousness are axiomatic concepts, because they are implicit in all knowledge.
By the way, up to my knowledge, neither Ayn Rand, nor any other Objectivist, ever tried to provide details of how come a tabula rasa mind could "choose to think."
The "choice to think" means the choice to raise one's awareness from a lower level to a higher one - to sharpen one's focus. It does not mean to go from a state of literal unconsciousness to one of consciousness. Joel, you need to learn more about Objectivism before criticizing it. If you're really interested in the philosophy, then take some time to read the relevant literature.

- Bill

Post 26

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:44amSanction this postReply
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Joel:
Cal please feel free to point out the unaddressed "real issues."
Perhaps you misunderstood me: I supported your statement, I mean the real issues you were talking about. I don't know if I have the time to enter into that discussion now myself.

Post 27

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:54amSanction this postReply
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Cal, you wrote: 
I don't know if I have the time to enter into that discussion now myself.
Now, understood. (In my misunderstanding I was leaving the door open to your eventual disagreement.)

Meanwhile, feel free to contact me through personal message whenever you wish.

Joel Català
 

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/21, 11:55am)


Post 28

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Dwyer introduced a new (Objectivist?) definition of tabula rasa mind:
The term "blank slate" simply refers to the fact that the human mind can have no knowledge of reality prior to any contact with it - that the mind is blank before it perceives reality.
Mr. Dwyer begged the question.  

Let's expose the flaw.

According to Ayn Rand, who defines the Objectivist "tabula rasa" mind as follows:  

"At birth, a child's mind is tabula rasa; he has the potential of awareness --the mechanism of human consciousness-- but no content."  

"No content" means nothing. No consciousness. The Randian "blank slate" has neither mind, nor volition. That means that Ayn Rand and her followers defend that consciousness somehow pops out ex nihilo from a mindless mind.

That's utter nonsense. 


Then Mr. Dwyer adds: 
[...] that the mind is blank before it perceives reality.
This assertion is nonsensical, too. Realize that a "blank mind" is the absence of mind, no mind at all. 

Additionally, Ayn Rand wrote that

"To perceive [...] is not an innate, but an acquired skill."

If the blank "mind is blank before it perceives reality" --Mr. Dwyer dixit--, and at same time perception is not a capacity of the "blank mind" --Rand's assertion--, then...

sound of trumpets... roll of drums...

the Objectivist "blank slate" remains a blank mind, forever and ever.


This fact does not contradict Objectivism's axiomatic concepts.
Mr. Dwyer, the "blank slate" has no mind, so "it" can't neither "identify" any "(axiomatic) concept", nor attain any kind of knowledge.   A child's mind is not tabula rasa. The Objectivist human tabula rasa chimera is ludicrous.

---

Afterwards, Mr. Dwyer wrote, wrongly implying that I misunderstand or ignore Objectivism: 
If you're really interested in the philosophy, then take some time to read the relevant literature.
I am interested in philosophy --without the "the".  Did I say that I attack Objectivism because I think it is definitely flawed?
  
Yes, I am interested in philosophy. Authentic philosophy.

Joel Català


---

An additional couple of interesting Ayn Rand quotes:

"Reason does not work automatically; thinking is not a mechanical process; the connections of logic are not made by instinct." -- Ayn Rand

“[...] is your mind’s freedom to think or not, the only will you have, your only freedom, the choice that controls all the choices you make and determines your life and character.” -- Ayn Rand
 
(Edited by Joel Català on 6/21, 12:36pm)

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/22, 7:30am)


Post 29

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 6:02pmSanction this postReply
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Joel wrote ...

By the way, up to my knowledge, neither Ayn Rand, nor any other Objectivist, ever tried to provide details of how come a tabula rasa mind could "choose to think."
So Bill wrote ...

=================
The "choice to think" means the choice to raise one's awareness from a lower level to a higher one - to sharpen one's focus. It does not mean to go from a state of literal unconsciousness to one of consciousness. Joel, you need to learn more about Objectivism before criticizing it.
=================

A) What Joel 'could've said' in response ...

=================
Thanks Bill! There I was, thinking that it was such a conundrum that 'tabula rasa minds' could choose to think. When, in all actuality, the mind is only tabula rasa until the very first perception of 'existence' -- after that, there are remembered particulars and imaginative recombinations of said particulars. Thanks for pointing that out to me, Bill (that, by the time the mind chooses to think, the slate has long since been filled with remembered particulars). That solves my conundrum!
=================


B) What Joel actually did say in response ...

I am interested in philosophy --without the "the".  Did I say that I attack Objectivism because I think it is definitely flawed?
  
Yes, I am interested in philosophy. Authentic philosophy.
Ed
[Now, one of the 2 responses above -- A or B -- is the more earnest. I will leave the solution out though, as an exercise for the reader.]


Post 30

Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 6:44pmSanction this postReply
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Exercise??? A newborn would know the answer to that..... ;-)

Post 31

Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 2:51amSanction this postReply
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A newborn would know the answer to that..... ;-)
According to Objectivism, a newborn is tabula rasa, or not, Mr. Malcom?   ;-)

Joel Català

P.S.: For the people interested in philosophy: the following book exposes that the Objectivist queen is naked,

"Objectivism and the Corruption of Rationality: A Critique of Ayn Rand's Epistemology." by S. Ryan

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/22, 3:06am)


Post 32

Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:55amSanction this postReply
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Joel, I'm not asking you to spoonfeed me, but I don't have the money to purchase that book right now. could perhaps provide a general overview, or maybe one or two specific points?

Post 33

Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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Hi Jonathan,

I will provide you two specific points from the book:

I) The alleged rationality of the Objectivist philosophy is only superficially apparent. The author of the critique develops a systematic reasoning which scratches deep under the surface of Objectivism, reaching its foundations, and successfully unveiling the philosophical untenability of the philosophy of Ayn Rand.

II) One of the main sources of Ayn Rand's flawed worldview was her extremely egotistic character, which sparked her pervasive irrational anti-Theistic bias, a permanent distortion which made of her ideology a mental strait-jacket.

The author, Scott Ryan, wrote "what is good in Objectivism is not original, and what is original is not good."

I agree with him.

Regards,

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/22, 9:41am)


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Post 34

Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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Joel, if you make major editorial revisions to a previous post a day later, as you have with Post 28, please let us know in a subsequent post, so that we at least have an opportunity to see what changes you've made and to respond to them. You wrote,
Mr. Dwyer introduced a new (Objectivist?) definition of tabula rasa mind: The term "blank slate" simply refers to the fact that the human mind can have no knowledge of reality prior to any contact with it - that the mind is blank before it perceives reality. Mr. Dwyer begged the question.
How have I begged the question? The classical alternative to tabula rasa is the doctrine of innate ideas, which says that you do have knowledge of reality prior to any contact with it.
Let's expose the flaw.

According to Ayn Rand, who defines the Objectivist "tabula rasa" mind as follows:

"At birth, a child's mind is tabula rasa; he has the potential of awareness --the mechanism of human consciousness-- but no content."

"No content" means nothing. No consciousness. The Randian "blank slate" has neither mind, nor volition. That means that Ayn Rand and her followers defend that consciousness somehow pops out ex nihilo from a mindless mind.

That's utter nonsense.
As your quote makes clear, by "mind" in this context, Rand is referring not to actual awareness, but to the potential for awareness - i.e., to the physiological basis for it, which is the brain and central nervous system. That potential is actualized once the senses are exposed to reality.
Then Mr. Dwyer adds: [...] that the mind is blank before it perceives reality. This assertion is nonsensical, too. Realize that a "blank mind" is the absence of mind, no mind at all.
Again, the term "mind" refers to the mechanism or physiological basis for consciousness, which is present before the child becomes aware of reality, not to the existence of consciousness itself. To be sure, it would be a contradiction to argue for a blank consciousness, which would be tantamount to a non-conscious consciousness, but that's not Rand's view, since she states that the child "has the potential of awareness -- the mechanism of human consciousness [i.e., the brain and central nervous system] -- but no content." [Emphasis added]
Additionally, Ayn Rand wrote that "To perceive [...] is not an innate, but an acquired skill."

If the blank "mind is blank before it perceives reality" --Mr. Dwyer dixit--, and at same time perception is not a capacity of the "blank mind" --Rand's assertion--, then...

sound of trumpets... roll of drums...

the Objectivist "blank slate" remains a blank mind, forever and ever.
Joel, you're dropping context here; your ellipsis omits a relevant portion of Rand's statement. Here is the full context: "If, in any two years of adult life, men could learn as much as an infant learns in his first two years, they would have the capacity of genius. To focus his eyes (which is not an innate, but an acquired skill), to perceive the things around him by integrating his sensations into percepts (which is not an innate, but an acquired skill), to coordinate his muscles for the task of crawling, then standing upright, then walking - and, ultimately, to grasp the process of concept-formation and learn to speak- these are some of an infant's tasks and achievements whose magnitude is not equaled by most men in the rest of their lives." (Emphasis added) ("The Comprachicos," The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution, p. 191). In other words, at the beginning of his life, an infant's awareness consists of nothing but sensations, which are subsequently integrated into percepts. This is what Rand was referring to when she said that "to perceive . . . is not an innate but an acquired skill."
"This fact does not contradict Objectivism's axiomatic concepts." Mr. Dwyer, the "blank slate" has no mind, so "it" can't neither "identify" any "(axiomatic) concept", nor attain any kind of knowledge. A child's mind is not tabula rasa. The Objectivist human tabula rasa chimera is ludicrous.
Yes, it's ludicrous, if you interpret it the way that you have, but that's not what Rand is saying. By "tabula rasa" - or blank slate - she means the potential, or physiological mechanism, for human awareness, not the awareness itself. Obviously, there can be no such thing as a blank (non-aware) awareness, which is a contradiction in terms.
Afterwards, Mr. Dwyer wrote, wrongly implying that I misunderstand or ignore Objectivism: "If you're really interested in the philosophy, then take some time to read the relevant literature." I am interested in philosophy --without the "the". Did I say that I attack Objectivism because I think it is definitely flawed?

Yes, I am interested in philosophy. Authentic philosophy.
Joel, I don't understand this reply. What do you mean when you say, "Did I say that I attack Objectivism because I think it is definitely flawed?"?? In any case, my point was that you're misconstruing and misstating what Objectivism says, because you're evidently not sufficiently familiar with the philosophy. You would do yourself as well as the rest of us a big favor, if you would simply take the time to become better acquainted with the ideas before criticizing them.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 6/22, 11:35am)


Post 35

Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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That is why would not discuss anything with him, Bill - too dishonest....

Post 36

Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Good reply, Bill.

Ed


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Post 37

Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent posts, Bill.  Rand's description of consciousness as being a process is very insightful.  The alternative view seems to be that the mind is some kind of static sum of knowledge, which somehow reacts with new information.  It's that second view that can't tolerate tabula rasa, since if the sum is zero, how could it react?  But Rand's formulations as a process of awareness doesn't require a priori knowledge.

It's disappointing when someone who clearly doesn't understand the details of Objectivism insists that he does.  Ignorance is one thing, but willful blindness is another.


Post 38

Friday, June 23, 2006 - 3:15amSanction this postReply
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Mr Rowlands,

Leaving apart your attempt of psychologizing, which is fundamentally irrelevant to the discussion, I will ask your own interpretation of Ayn Rand's words regarding Objectivism.

Independent thinking means to be capable of defending your opinion in your own words.

I will go step by step:

I) Ayn Rand defines the Objectivist "tabula rasa" mind as follows:  

"At birth, a child's mind is tabula rasa; he has the potential of awareness --the mechanism of human consciousness-- but no content."  

"No content" means no consciousness, because consciousness is consciousness of something.

So, according to Objectivism a newborn has no consciousness, and so he is mindless.

Mr. Dwyer added, in the same line:
[...] that the mind is blank before it perceives reality.
So Mr. Dwyer implies --and you did not object-- that the view that "blank mind" is no mind at all is the Objectivist one

II) Additionally, Ayn Rand wrote that

"To perceive [...] is not an innate, but an acquired skill."


III) Conclusion:

If the blank "mind is blank before it perceives reality" --Mr. Dwyer dixit--, and at same time perception is not a capacity of the "blank mind" --Rand's assertion--, then...

sound of trumpets... roll of drums...

the Objectivist "blank slate" remains a blank mind, forever and ever.

----

Another, closely related point, you partially addressed in your post, Mr. Rowlands, is that of the "potential of awareness."

This "potential of awareness" requires volition to actualize the "potential of awareness" into actual awareness.

But volition requires consciousness.

So without consciousness, awareness can't be actual, and Objectivism epistemology is fundamentally wrong.

Could you solve that conundrum, Mr. Rowlands? Thank you.

Perhaps now we will see who displays blindness.

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/23, 3:19am)


Post 39

Friday, June 23, 2006 - 3:21amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Dwyer wrote:

How have I begged the question?
You begged the question of how the Objectivist "potential awareness" becomes actual awareness in a mindless blank slate. For more details, see my last post personally directed to Mr. Rowlands.

The human "blank slate" is a bogus concept.

Joel Català


(Edited by Joel Català on 6/23, 3:26am)


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