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Post 20

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 8:27amSanction this postReply
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Lindsay Perigo:
The unsanction option got abused by people with vendettas. I yearn for it back myself when I see some Saddamite airhead with four Atlases, but the vendetta problem was huge.
I suspect a vendetta problem exists anyway to some degree.  Person #1 writes something that Person #2 dislikes. Person #2 posts, criticizing Person #1. Person #2 then gets Atlas points from others, especially those who hold a grudge for Person #1. Of course, such sanctions are spread over more people when there are different names in the Person #2 role.

Consider the recent Adam Reed - Andy Postema case. Adam properly received no Atlas points for his opener. In this case, I'd guess the "grudge point" factor was minimal, but others received numerous Atlas points for what were tantamount to unsanctions of Adam (although I enjoyed the humorous ones). Then Adam gets 57 Atlas points for apologizing. There is something screwy there in Adam's case. In the end he gets 57 Atlas points on account of his opening post which should not have been made to begin with. That's too much like crediting an ex-drug addict or ex-alcoholic for recovery, while avoiding any blame for becoming a drug addict or alcoholic in the first place.

I don't know how in detail the unsanction option was abused. Maybe aggravating it was Person #2 got a grudge against Person #1 and then systematically unsanctioned Person #1's posts from the distant past. That could be stopped by not allowing unsanctioning of posts more than N days old.

Another thing that strikes me as screwy is why the number of Atlas points depends on who is doing the sanctioning. Why is Lindsay's sanction worth 5/3rds as much as mine or mine 3 times as much as a newbie's?


Post 21

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 6:42amSanction this postReply
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Ms. Ethan Dawe, "punch square in the nose?"

LOL, that's kind of unbelievable.

Maybe a big pinch.


Post 22

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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Merlin said:

=============
I don't know how in detail the unsanction option was abused. Maybe aggravating it was Person #2 got a grudge against Person #1 and then systematically unsanctioned Person #1's posts from the distant past. That could be stopped by not allowing unsanctioning of posts more than N days old.
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Merlin, you are a wizard! Er, ah, what I meant to say is that this is a great idea, Merlin (thanks)!

Hey SOLOHQhigh-ups, what do you say? I mean this idea could really work! Another thing we could do is to track the unsanction level to earned atlas icons (just as we already do for sanctions), where we could have a higher benchmark to reach, before your unsanctions actually mean anything!

What I mean is that, if you are a mere black-heart bozo (with the minimum 10 atlases for your unmoderation), then YOUR unsanctions won't take effect. You would have to earn the power of unsanction, say, from having first earned 2 ATLAS ICONS. Even then, your unsanction level would be -- like before -- half of your sanction level (you could give folks 2 atlases per sanction, but only take away one per unsanction).

72 hours to unsanction, and that is all we'd give (to those who'd earned it first by gaining either 1 or 2 Atlases).

Ed

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Post 23

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 12:27pmSanction this postReply
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Er...

I never go after sanction points. I post a lot and people like what I say. They bonk me.

I agree that Linz's and Tibor's contributions in terms of articles should receive due recognition (and how about Joe Rowlands and others)?

If my number of points is bothering so many people, how about the administration simply removing one or two thousand? That would be fine with me. They can remove them all if they wish. They own the site and write the rules. They can rewrite them if they wish, also. That is their prerogative.

The points are good for vanity, I suppose, and they do indicate that people are reading and liking what I write, but they mean little else in terms of intellectual appraisal.

Still - I will not pretend that I am not pleased when somebody likes my stuff. Being pleased with approval is normal for any human being.

So a heartfelt thank you to all of you who like what I write and demonstrate it.

I always try to do the same as honestly as possible. Hell, I have even sanctioned people like Shayne Wissler (and many others) before when I was at serious odds with him (and them). I have even sanctioned James Valliant and Casey Fahy recently.

For me, truth is truth and has no human owner who can change it at whim. I always try to sanction the truth and a good sense of life. I believe others respond in kind.

Michael


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Post 24

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin:Then Adam gets 57 Atlas points for apologizing
Merlin, I guess you missed the point of the sanctions.
They weren't direct to Adam himself.
But to his courage to apply morality when needed.
He also said that he has learned from this experience and he will use it in the future.
Does he has to put his pants down now?
What else he has to do.
Daymn.
Ciro.



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Post 25

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 2:31pmSanction this postReply
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I got a great idea.  Instead of telling Joe and his crew to reprogram this site to tweak sanction points this way or that way, how about we just don't give a damn about them?

Andy


Post 26

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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Andy,

I fully agree.

Bonk.

Michael


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Post 27

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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MSK  enjoy your money!
You are the richest on this forum!

Now that we have the winner no one seems to be interested to the sanctions any more.
hipocrites!


Post 28

Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin:

"That's too much like crediting an ex-drug addict or ex-alcoholic for recovery, while avoiding any blame for becoming a drug addict or alcoholic in the first place."

Exactly. It's a bit like the modern justice system. Plea bargaining & sentence reduction for admissions of guilt or contrition.

I can't say I've paid much attention to Atlas points. High volume posters are going to garner more points regardless of the veracity or rigour of their posts. It's the old adage about a squeaky wheel getting the oil.

However, if a rating system of some kind is deemed a good then there may be some minor tweaks that could improve things.

The idea of a ratio of posts to articles is a good one. And simply making each sanction worth one point makes sense. One person, one vote. Each sanction just gets added to the sanctionee's post count.

Or just dispense with the whole damn thing. Let the market find it's own level.

Ross


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Post 29

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 5:49amSanction this postReply
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Diana Hsieh writes: 


I'm not exactly a fan of SOLO..since [it] offers a friendly platform to Michael Stuart Kelly and too many other dishonest critics of Objectivism. Still, I'm glad that someone on SOLO has bothered to read Ayn Rand...

SOLO is a pretty disturbing place, I think. It's a welcome forum for TOC staff and supporters, die-hard worshippers of the Brandens, writers of articles horribly misrepresenting Objectivism, the fanatical haters of all things ARI, and those half-baked pseudo-Objectivists who wish to inject the philosophy with their own personal mysticism, altruism, nonjudgmentalism, and appeasement. That's not to say that there's not some good people contributing to SOLO. However, as with all such joint ventures between good and evil, the good elements legitimize the bad while the bad drowns out the good...

At least in my own case, it's not at all a matter of any kind of refusal to debate dissenters. If that was a worry of mine, I'd be too damn scared to blog. And ARI intellectuals wouldn't be lecturing on campuses, writing op-eds, and the like. (Frankly, the lovey-dovey folks at TOC deserve that charge more than anyone else, since they steadfastly refuse to acknowledge any substantial disagreement with their intellectual opponents!)

My choice not to post to SOLO is a matter of upholding basic standards in intellectual discussion, particularly as to what constitutes Objectivism. Never in a million years will I chime in with Bob Bidinotto, Barbara Branden, Robert Campbell, Ed Hudgins, Roger Bissell, Michael Kelly, and the like—as if we're all good, honest, and chummy friends of Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism, albeit with some minor differences of opinion.

Of course, I don't expect [Lindsay] to share my assessment of those people. It took much interaction, reflection, and thought, often over the course of months, to reach those judgments. Often, it meant losing friends—and that was hard. However, you should know that my refusal to engage in debate on SOLO is a direct result of my judgment that far too many regular contributors to SOLO are intellectually unserious at best and dishonestly hostile to Objectivism (and particularly Ayn Rand) at worst. That those people are not just welcome but also beloved on SOLO means that it's not a forum that can offer me (or anyone from ARI) a fair intellectual fight." 



Diana is a cut above the typical zombie cyborg loser of ARI. But only that. Her reasons cited above for not participating on SOLO are a mish-mash of half-baked nonsense. In the end she refuses to argue and debate here -- or anywhere slightly open and honest --  because she secretly knows she would lose. SOLOists and TOCers belong to the philosophical branch of Objectivism. Diana and her evil ARI cohorts belong to the religious branch of Objectivism. The intellectual divide here is wide.

Ultimately, Diana and her fellow ARIan intellectual perverts are enemies of the Western tradition and Westen liberal progress. They stand in fundamental opposition to reason, philosophy, scholarship, speculation and inquiry, intellectual discourse and dissent, Aristotle, the Enlightenment, Rand, and Objectivism.

These sadsack deviants only discuss things with themselves and those massively ignorant of Ayn Rand and Objectivsm. But when they come across SOLOists, TOCers, libertarians, Austrians, classicists, the Brandens, or anyone whatsoever with any knowledge whatsoever -- they turn tail and run. Like vermin, they fear the light of day. Their claims that the totality of the widely variegated and informed critics of cult "Objectivism" are all intellectually "unserious" and dishonest" are themselves unserious and dishonest.

How sad that like Darth Vaderette, Diana recently turned to the dark side!  

(Edited by Andre Zantonavitch on 10/31, 6:27am)


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Post 30

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 8:13amSanction this postReply
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Andre,

LOLOLOLOLOL...

That was one hell of a rant.

I sanctioned it, but let me state for the record that I do not hold Ms. Hsieh as evil - just misguided.

Her evaluations (like me being dishonest, for instance) are based on a blank-out of a cognitive/normative nature (blanking out the cognitive but keeping the normative) that always seems to come with too much jingoism - not just in Objectivism either.

You have to see reality properly in order to judge it. If you only see what you want to see, and not see what is, of course your judgments will reflect this.

I wish Ms. Hsieh well. She has written many intelligent essays.

Michael


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Post 31

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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Michael writes: 

LOLOLOLOLOL...

That was one hell of a rant.

I sanctioned it, but let me state for the record that I do not hold Ms. Hsieh as evil - just misguided....

I wish Ms. Hsieh well. She has written many intelligent essays.



Thanks for the compliment. And maybe Diana really is simply misguided. But she's truly making a terrible mistake here. She's now on record as -- and in every serious and important sense is - solidly in favor of cultism and against reason.

Michael -- I always have one question for every ARI apologist: Have you even ONCE asked Leonard Peikoff, Yaron Brook, Harry Binswanger, etc. a semi-challenging or minutely probing question about TOC, David Kelley, Nathaniel Branden, the libertarians, etc. and got an even SLIGHTLY respectful, decent, or tolerable reply?

I defy anyone on this planet to say they got this response even ONCE.      


Post 32

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Andre,

It depends where and it what context you ask it. I'm not an ARI supporter, but we had briefly had a Ayn Rand Club president at Harvey Mudd College who was an Objectivist, but was a registered, but not vocal member of the Libertarian Party. At the time, Second Renaissance had a restriction on the use of lecture tapes by Libertarian Party members. Gary Hull quickly said that that restriction did not apply to students.

I also had discussions with Darryl Wright about liking Milton Friedman as an economist in a professor, student (I was the student) role. He even had John Hospers in his syllabus.

So I think it's more accurate to say that ARI members don't entertain those questions at ARI functions and activities and I'm sure that there are some ARI members who don't entertain them at all. I think it's better to simply ask those questions of people who will answer them rather than deliberately twisting the tail of ARI members at their own function.

Jim


Post 33

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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I will be quick to point out that we never asked for ARI support as a club and when Gary Hull or Linda Reardan showed up to a club meeting, we pretty much let them have the floor.

Jim


Post 34

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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James Heaps-Nelson writes:

So I think it's more accurate to say that ARI members don't entertain those [important, serious, or relevant] questions at ARI functions and activities and I'm sure that there are some ARI members who don't entertain them at all. I think it's better to simply ask those questions of people who will answer them rather than deliberately twisting the tail of ARI members at their own function.



The great problem here is all those questions were asked privately, and I never once "twisted their tail" -- even tho' they all richly deserved it. In particular, Gary Hull and Yaron Brook simply defied belief with the disrespect of their replies to me. These pathetic clowns are simply evil. These folks are both hateful and bizarre. My whole point is: Has anyone else ever had a different experience?

Personally, not once have I had a good experience with ARIans. Not once have I had a bad experience with TOCers, SOLOists, and libertarians. And I asked them all the same questions. In fact, like dealing with mental cripples and psychopaths -- I was always especially delicate, docile, and obsequious with the ARIans. 


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Post 35

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Merlin, Ciro kinda beat me to this, but I thought I'd chime in.  You wrote: 
Consider the recent Adam Reed - Andy Postema case. Adam properly received no Atlas points for his opener. In this case, I'd guess the "grudge point" factor was minimal, but others received numerous Atlas points for what were tantamount to unsanctions of Adam (although I enjoyed the humorous ones). Then Adam gets 57 Atlas points for apologizing. There is something screwy there in Adam's case. In the end he gets 57 Atlas points on account of his opening post which should not have been made to begin with. That's too much like crediting an ex-drug addict or ex-alcoholic for recovery, while avoiding any blame for becoming a drug addict or alcoholic in the first place.
I doubt that anyone was sanctioning Adam's "recovery."  After all, his recovery (sticking to his pledge) remains to be seen.  It was his exemplary moral self assessment that was sanctioned.  What we're praising is morality and rationality (neither of which are a necessary consequence of addiction recovery, btw).  I sanctioned his use of rationality in the very difficult arena of negative self-judgement.  That's hard to do no matter where you've been or what you've done.  Personal accountability is thing of beauty.  It is also courageous to be so accountable in the shark infested waters of cyberspace, when the norm--even around here sometimes--is either to deny or evade at the cost of both rationality and morality.  And I say such behavior is to be encouraged.

-Kevin

Post 36

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 1:29pmSanction this postReply
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Kevin Haggerty wrote:

I doubt that anyone was sanctioning Adam's "recovery."
I didn't say people sanctioned Adam's "recovery." I said they sanctioned his apology. My use of "recovery" was part of an analogy. You and Ciro seemed to have missed my main point. Maybe I can make it a little clearer. If there were negative Atlas points, then his Atlas points for his opener and his apology combined would have been much less than 57. Or if he had not posted the opener, there would have been no need for the apology, and there would been zero Atlas points.



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Post 37

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

I'm confused. Adam received sanctions and encouragement for taking the first honorable steps in correcting a mistake. It is obvious as all get out that you have to make a mistake in order to correct it. So I don't get the "between-the-lines" of your observation.

Are you implying that he made a mistake of that magnitude to get Atlas points? Frankly, given such magnitude, I think he would have much preferred to have done without them and not have made the mistake at all.

Atlas points is a poor gain for the self-inflicted humiliation he had to endure.

Michael


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Post 38

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 5:43pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Thank you for reading me right. I seldom pay attention to my "Atlas Points." "Atlas Points" probably have some utility for the administration of SOLO. Anyone who believes that I would ever manipulate my writing for applause just does not know me.


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Post 39

Monday, October 31, 2005 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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MSK wrote:

I'm confused. Adam received sanctions and encouragement for taking the first honorable steps in correcting a mistake. It is obvious as all get out that you have to make a mistake in order to correct it. So I don't get the "between-the-lines" of your observation.
Please tell me, Mr. Confused, how I could have been more clear. He received NO NEGATIVE ATLAS POINTS for his mistake. And if he had not made the mistake in the first place, he WOULD NOT HAVE RECEIVED +57 for his apology.
Are you implying that he made a mistake of that magnitude to get Atlas points?
No. What did I write that you could possibly  misconstrue as implying that?


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