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Tuesday
October 11, 2005

Ask The Question by Duncan Bayne

How often do you start to discuss an issue with someone, and find yourself going around in circles, with the debate degenerating into an argument, and then into a fight, finally ending without anyone having learned anything? There’s an easy fix for this problem. As soon as you’ve identified the issue at hand and determined the other person’s position, ask The Question. (Read more...)
Discuss this Article (29 messages)

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 1:57am

Every month, I'm asked to make a contribution to our company newsletter; this month, I've given them a copy of this to include.

It should get my colleagues talking, if nothing else - and Josh, the guy who edits our company newsletter, wondered if I'd been reading Aristotle recently. I love my workplace at times :-)

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 6:57am

Duncan,
Great article! Here's to the rational Bobs of the world.
Thanks,
Glenn

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 8:14am

Duncan:Any answer to The Question from this particular Bob is likely to be on a purely emotive level.

Duncan, last month I had a discussion with a very close Bob, not too close to be my son though. The discussion was on promiscuosity. During the discussion he rejected all that which a man should live for.
When I asked him your same question, What would I have to show you in order for you to change your mind?"

His answer was; why Do you want change my mind? and why you care too?
What would your answer be?

BTW Great article.
Ciro.

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/11, 8:17am)

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 10/11, 8:18am)

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 9:32am

Ciro, the answer to your Bob's counter-question ought to depend on the context of the discussion. In your place, I might answer, "I want to convince you because I don't like to see people spit on the values that make my life worth living."

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 10:39am

To which Bob might justifiably reply:

I don't care what you think about it. I don't care what you feel about it. Now let me alone!

One of my pet peeves is snoopy busybodies who want to mind my business whether they end up being "right" or not.

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:06am

Luke, the possibility of such an answer is the reason I usually don't start philosophical discussions with others.

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:52am

Luke what if he/she is a person you care about? or is a relative of yours?

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:54am

Matthew maybe you are right, I shouldn't have started the discussion at all.

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:58am

Ciro, if push comes to shove, I care about myself above all others. So the exchange might, in the end, still go the way I described in Post 4 even if I do test The Question. This means that I might need to walk away from the situation whether I fill the role of Duncan or Bob. Bob has the right to live his life his way despite the protests of Duncan. If it comes to an issue of how to vote, well, haranguing potential converts will not do the trick. If they have no interest in listening, time is better spent saying, "Next!"

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 12:52pm

I'd implied (but in light of some of the questions, perhaps not stongly enough) that debate is only worthwhile if there's a payoff for me:

So is there any point debating an issue with any other kind? Sure, if you know what you want out of it.

I hope I didn't give the idea that I go around on some kind of 'moral crusade' - in fact, one of the reasons for the line of thinking that led to this article was concern that I was wasting my time doing just that.
(Edited by Duncan Bayne
on 10/11, 12:53pm)

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 2:36pm

"What would I have to show you in order for you to change your mind?"

Y'all realize this is nothing more than a very old and very basic sales closing technique. Imagine you're at the car dealership., You've just said no. This or one of its variations has an extremely high probability of being the comeback

If you want to go that route, you can always try something sexier. Try an up-front contract.

The way this works is that you have them agree to, when all is said and done, to either say yes, or no (agree/disagree). Yes of course is wonderful, it will make your day. No is expected, we all hear that pretty often, it goes with the territory. What will be horribly counterproductive is to say "I'll think about it." .

Then, if they say "I'll think about it", you remind them of the up-front contract and you launch back in.

But see, that is selling. Luke is right- when discussing ideas and someone tries that kind of thing on me, my respect for them plummets.

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 4:41pm

Rich,

Yes, you're right - The Question* could be used in a sales role, where the aim is to find out what would be a "deal-maker".

The use I've suggested in this article, though, is to try to get the person with whom you're debating to consider the issues & principles at hand, and to test whether he's capable of doing so rationally.

Out of curiosity, why are you offended by people trying to 'sell' you ideas?

* I'm really glad I used the phrase "The Question" to represent the actual wording of the question in my original article. It's saved a lot of confusion, both in the article itself, and in subsequent discussion.

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 5:08pm

Speaking for myself, Duncan, The Question is a double-edged sword.

In a formal discussion group, I think it is great, which is why I added your article to the SOLO Clubs page as a link. The purpose of a SOLO discussion group is to engage in a truth-seeking dialogue. Your question brings the abstractions back to observable concretes -- good Objectivist epistemology.

Many other times, though, people who express opinions in a drawing room or wherever are not necessarily looking for an argument or a debate. They simply want to vent. Granted, they should be more careful with their tongues so as not to attract such aggravations in the first place. However, unless the setting is formally aimed at the goal of a truth-seeking debate, such distracting disagreements may only serve to annoy rather than to enlighten the person in question.

I will dissent a bit from the Rand-Branden-Peikoff canon by suggesting that it does not always serve us to say openly that we disagree with someone, especially when the disagreement is over a trifle. I might say, "Well, that's interesting," and leave it at that. Why? If I do express disagreement, the other party might just ask me to explain why. Unless I have loads of extra time and energy on my hands combined with a purpose in line with my other purposes of the interaction, such an effort will have a high probability of negative payoff.

For instance, I have a co-worker in the next cubicle who has openly stated, within earshot, that she would like to see all smoking outlawed. My purpose in working at NASA is to earn a good income while doing cool stuff related to space. Arguing with this woman about the evils of her fascist agenda falls outside the scope of that purpose. So unless she asks me directly, I see no value in raising a disagreement with her. Even if she does raise it with me, I will just tell her my opinion without trying to "explain" it to her in excruciating detail, since "explanations" just raise more resource-consuming objections and, more to the point, will ultimately not make any tangible increase in my personal liberty.

If I chose political activism rather than engineering as my core career and central life purpose, then I would naturally engage many more people in debate and would hone my skills at such.

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 5:38pm

Luke,

I think we are in perfect agreement here. All The Question was designed to do, as far as I was concerned, was to help me work out whether an individual was being rational about a topic or not - not to help answer the question "is this debate worth my time & effort?"

W.r.t. the other party asking "why?", that's another rule of thumb I try to use when working out whether a particular debate is worth entering. If I can't be bothered explaining my position to someone, I generally won't bother stating it in the first place (outside of a formal poll, e.g. "where should we go for dinner?")

Edit: Luke, you seem to be very skilled at applying the virtue of selfishness to better your own life. Keep it up!
(Edited by Duncan Bayne
on 10/11, 7:23pm)

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 8:23pm

Duncan:
You did a good job in answering that contemporary, near-iconic, question (which touches on some of my probs re cyber-arguing), "What about Bob?"
Bravo.

LLAP
J:D

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:49pm

I think Rich was on to something with his salesman comment. "What would I have to show you in order for you to change your mind?" as a way to discover if Bob is rational is inherently deceptive. The real question in that case is, "Bob, are you rational?" which reveals the underlying absurdity of the inquiry. Do you really need to ask if Bob is rational or not? Can't you tell? At the very least, the question is a cheat; why not simply say, "Hand me my winning argument, won't you?" I find being direct as possible is the best way to communicate, but communicating an idea clearly, is rather different from trying to change a person's mind. In my experience, people change their own minds, or their minds don't really change.

-Kevin

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:53pm

Well said, Kevin.

Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 12:23am

I loved The Question. Thanks, Duncan!

Kevin & Lance,

The Question is a question that tells you things, things that you would want to know about folks. Yeah, sure, it's somewhat indirect, but it's revealing, nonetheless. C'mon dudes, how many folks would answer, in the affirmative, the question: Are you being irrational?

Ed

Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 12:34am

Hey Ed.

Kevin sez:

In my experience, people change their own minds, or their minds don't really change.

That's what it comes to for me. If a person enjoys arguing for the sake of arguing then Duncan's question is the best you can do. But, speaking as one who has argued to no avail many times, I see no value in it.

Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 12:39am

Now if you want to talk guidance I can run with that.

My dear friend Dennis once said:

Lance, all you can do is be a guide. All you can really do is point in a direction that worked for you and if it works for them, great. If not, let them find their answers someplace else.

The key is to not get bent outta shape about it unless it is affecting you directly.