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Post 0

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 1:33amSanction this postReply
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This seems like a nice, concise summary. As someone who has not dunked his head into determinist theory, there are in my mind two quick and easy points that cut off the argument at the ankles.

1. The clearly causal force of consciousness -- our thoughts -- isn't measured in matter. When I decide to smack, rather than smooch, a hipster determinist, I have conscious knowledge that I am making a choice. I am more certain of that knowledge than anything in the whole wide world. If I can't be sure of that, then I definitely can't be sure that I'm accurately perceiving tiny, detailed physics evidence. But such knowledge is discarded by determinists because it can't be "proven" in matter.

2. The fallacy of composition. There is a reason why that is one of the cardinal logical fallacies in philosophy. No situation better explains it than that described in Rule #1.

Maybe these two points aren't completely sufficient for immediate refutation. They certainly seem so to me. Do you guys think they are?

I especially cannot understand, given the fallacy of composition, how *any* purportedly rational philosopher can embrace physical determinism. (Self-fulfilling physicists are another matter. It's easy to see how they can be tempted to sloppily view their work as having cosmic ethical consequences.)

Alec


Post 1

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 1:46amSanction this postReply
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Well said, Tibor. No mincing of words required.

Ed

Post 2

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 3:16amSanction this postReply
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You don't see a pride of lions sitting around deciding who's going to be the next alpha male or who gets to eat the next gazelle. There is no sense of justice or morality for such animals, there just *is*. They don't decide, they just *do*.

The contemplative, decision making process that is subsumed in morality makes free will a given.

Ross

Post 3

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 5:54amSanction this postReply
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I don't want to respond to this and further develop my reputation as mister physical determinist, but I'm doing it anyway...

As a reminder, it seems to me that a human is just a whole bunch of tiny particles all jiggling and dancing around in a very complex manner, and that the way all these tiny particles bounce around is determined by the laws of physics; the universe seems to be just a big chain reaction, and the way the chain reaction unfolds is determined by the laws of physics.  Perhaps quantum mechanics adds some uncertainty to the situation, but I don't see how random chance could save free will.  I don't see how free will can be reconciled with the clockwork (or Quantum Mechanically random) universe of physics.

2. The fallacy of composition. There is a reason why that is one of the cardinal logical fallacies in philosophy.
I Googled "fallacy of composition" to remind myself what it is, and I found this:

The fallacy of Composition is committed when a conclusion is drawn about a whole based on the features of its constituents when, in fact, no justification [is] provided for the inference.
(the bold is mine.)  A little later, the discussion I found says this:

It is important to note that drawing an inference about the characteristics of a class based on the characteristics of its individual members is not always fallacious
It seems to me that this is a case where drawing an inference about a "class", in this case a human, based on the characteristics of its individual members, the particles that make up the human, is justified. If the behavior of each particle making up a human is determined by the laws of physics, then the behavior of the human is as well.  Alec, if you had decided to smooch instead of smack in your example, your individual particles would have ended up in different positions.  But that's impossible if the motion of each of your particles is completely determined by the laws of physics.  I don't think I'm committing the "fallacy of composition."  (Again, Quantum Mechanical randomness complicates the picture some, but I don't see how random chance can save free will.  If my decisions are a result of millions of random chances that could have equally well gone another way, I wouldn't call that free will.)


When I decide to smack, rather than smooch, a hipster determinist, I have conscious knowledge that I am making a choice. I am more certain of that knowledge than anything in the whole wide world. If I can't be sure of that, then I definitely can't be sure that I'm accurately perceiving tiny, detailed physics evidence
I think this is a good point, and this point is what would make me bet that we have free will, even though I don't see what's wrong with the physics argument against free will.  But I think that if physical considerations seem to imply that we can't have free will, then we at least have to consider the possibility that our feeling of free will might actually be an illusion.  It is conceivable that we could feel like we have free will, even though we actually don't.

As I said in another post, I feel a little uneasy about the fact that "free will" might not even be very well-defined; but whatever it is, I don't see how we can have it in a clockwork or Quantum Mechanically random universe.

(Edited by Daniel O'Connor on 8/23, 6:00am)


Post 4

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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Is either way actually deducible?

Post 5

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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Are you saying that consciousness is a physical thing?  Is that an objectivist take on the matter (I'm still reading The Fountainhead for the first time, so I'm new to the discipline)?  I thought consciousness was real because we experience it, not because it is a physical object in space.  Is consciousness made up of atoms, monads, etc?  You know, 'cause if it ain't, then physical laws wouldn't apply in quite the same way as the do with atoms in a cup of coffee or what have you.  Consciousness would seem to be a product of certain physical matter but not matter in itself.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around the controversy.  Choices seem to be such an integral part of life and reality.  Without choice there can be no error and no waste.  Is there not enormous error all around us?  We see willessness when we look at certain dementias and mental disfunction; that's what willessness in a human looks like.  Is that, secretly what we truly are?

As I said, I'm reading The Fountainhead and our Mr. Roarke is constantly bombarded with the willess, "go with the flow," options to do what is "expected" or "appropriate" or "what everyone else is doing."   Seems clear to me that a man with less will would certainly have surrendered to such forces.


Post 6

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 10:32pmSanction this postReply
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What is choice? It is when the neurons in your brain compare your past experiences to the current context, decide which past experiences apply, then use deduction and induction to figure out what is best. You can perceive/think about your own thinking because you are able to abstract ideas into concepts, and loop them through your short term memory. You think poorly when your neurons become incapable of putting together a context that closely resembles reality. You cease to think when your neurons stop using induction and deduction. Your neurons are you.

Where would this "free" will come from? In what way would it be "free"? Independent from the laws of reality? No, the way we think _must_ abide by the laws of reality. I see what it is... you want to be your own cause-- you do not want your actions to be determined by anything but yourself. But what is your "self"? You are the current state of the sum of the energy/matter's state which your body keeps intact for the most part over time. You are a part of reality's entirety, which is all energy, matter, space, time, and workings/laws.

Pain? Pleasure? They come from a different section of neurons, which indicate to the rest of your neurons a priority to stop something or keep something intact. Confusion? Fear? They are your neurons exhausted search, eventually preferring to stop thinking rather then continue trying to determining the context or continue inducting/deducting. Sadness? A prolonged pain which you realize you are incapable of stopping something. Exited? Your neurons are in a state most suitable for gathering information/reacting/ or performing.

Where does morality come in? My neurons, me, my body, I, Dean, I... chose/deduced to have a goal to live. I had nothing to base moral judgement on until I gave myself a goal. From that basis, deduct that it would be best for my goal if you were to make the same choice with respect to yourself.

Boy, that was a mess. I need some sleep. Good night.

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Post 7

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Although I do not share Dennett's Laplacian tendencies, I do agree with his approach, which is to try to identify in what significant, worthwhile respect we (and/or our wills) are free beyond the lower animals. (He speaks of "the kind of freedom worth having.") This is also how the late neuroscientist Roger Sperry approached the matter, although from a different vantage-point. (See the review essay of Sperry on my webpage at

http://members.aol.com/REBissell/indexmm.html )

I personally maintain that our conceptual ability, especially our
ability to imagine or project the future, gives us a range of alternative actions that frees us from the more limited, concrete-bound, range-of-the-moment perspective of the lower animals. This is a kind of freedom worth having, and that sets us apart from the lower animals, and it also explains a lot of the choices and actions humans take. I also maintain that, barring disease, disability, or coercion, we are free to at least attempt to take whatever action we most want to take at any given time. Animals, also, are capable of this, but their range of such wants and actions is limited by their not having a time-spanning conceptual faculty, so we are free-er than they are, in that regard.

This approach, examining the actual behavior and its range for different kinds of living beings, is empirical and inductive, and it allows one to carefully include all the things that living beings are capable of, without imputing to them, from the armchair, the ability to “have done other than one did, even if one didn’t want to.” When asked why someone chose x rather than y, Leonard Peikoff, the leading spokesman for Objectivism, says, incredibly, “There is no why.” In other words, for Peikoff, free will means (among other things) that you didn’t choose to do what you did because it was what you wanted most (in that context). You just chose it, period, and you could have chosen otherwise, period. I respect Peikoff a lot, but this particular argument of his is just atrocious.

 

Once, however, you ask “why” someone chose a particular thing, it seems to me that you are stuck with this answer: because that’s what they most wanted to choose. In other words, our choices and actions are determined by our values. Thus, I regard humans' wills or actions being free in the sense I described above as being compatible with determinism. Animals are free, also, but (as described above) with a more limited range of choice/action, and thus less free than humans in that respect. Animals, like humans, however, must act in accordance with their values. So, the freedom of both animals and humans is compatible with determinism – not of the Laplacean kind, or the clockwork universe kind, or the micro-reductionist kind, or the environmental determinist kind, or the genetic determinist kind, but the value-determinist kind.

Here is another way of saying what I mean: animals and humans are so constructed biologically that – barring disease, disability, or coercion – there is no existing barrier or block between what they most value and their pursuing that thing in their actions. This is the way in which all animals are free – recognizing that humans, being conceptual, are free-er than the lower animals. The absence of any such barrier or block is what I mean by freedom of action and determinism being compatible. There is nothing to bar animals and humans from doing what their values dictate they must do.

I further hold that one's actions being determined by one's values is equivalent to agent causation. Or, as Tibor says, “For my money, there is no reasonable doubt about it: human beings, unless crucially incapacitated, have the capacity to initiate some of their conduct.” However, I would go further than this. I think that the lower animals are agents, too, though not deliberative agents. They, too, are the center, the wellspring of their actions, just like humans. And the specific aspect of their nature that determines what they, as agents, will do is their values. This is the form of causality that governs the actions of living beings (including plants, to the extent that they may be said to have values) – hierarchical, entity-action, end-oriented, value-determinism.

 

Finally, while I maintain that we could not have done otherwise than we did in any given situation (unless we had chosen differently), I nonetheless hold that morality, rights, and punishment of crime are all compatible with determinism. However, I think we have to be very careful about using the term “moral responsibility.” I think it’s obvious that not everyone is morally responsible. Any person can choose to be morally responsible, if he wants that more strongly than to not be morally responsible. But that “if” is the whole problem. Moral responsibility is not a given, not an inherent attribute of human beings, but a choice.

 

Further, if we want a healthy, functional society (more than we want something that conflicts with it), we ought to behave in that manner, and we ought to teach our children, students, etc. to behave in that manner, and we ought to set up the laws and mores so that they reward such behavior and punish irresponsibility. But one thing I've held for a long time is that, whether or not one has chosen to be morally responsible, that is irrelevant to whether or not one should be punished or held accountable for violating another's rights. Using non-defensive force against others (I'm not talking about making kids take medicine or stopping them from running out into a busy street) is the same kind of existential evil (i.e., threat to human life) as an attack by a rabid dog.

 

I often hear the objection that determinism undercuts punishment of crime or immorality. However, it is not "unfair" to punish a rights-violator who couldn't help doing what he did (because he had not chosen to be morally responsible), any more than it is "unfair" to put to sleep a rabid dog that couldn't help doing what it did. I have every right, as do the rest of the people in society, to take appropriate measures to defend myself against threats to my life, regardless of the fact that those animals or people threatening my life cannot help what they are doing. So, being determined to act in accordance with one's values does not let one off the hook for punishment, and in that sense being responsible (i.e., answerable) for what one does.

 

Best to all,

Roger Bissell


Post 8

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Kevin,

You just made one hell of an observation that aligns a great deal with my own thinking.
Consciousness would seem to be a product of certain physical matter but not matter in itself.
As to the Objectivist view on whether consciousness is a physical thing or not, I don't think the answer has been resolved to satisfaction.

My own thinking is really close to what you stated, except with certain observations. I will write an article on this very shortly.

Meanwhile, congratulations on a very good independent manner of thinking and asking the right questions. (I intend to use this quote, also, if you don't mind.)

Michael


Edit - Kevin, I was just reviewing some of your other posts and see that you claim to be a psychic and so forth. I am still interested in using this quote from you (which I will credit), but I want to make it clear that this will not mean that I also endorse any other idea of yours. I'm not making light of what you experience, nor your other thoughts (some of which I agree with and others which I do not). I am just making my own ideas and their sources clear. (btw - In another thread, you misspelled my middle name as "Stewart" instead of "Stuart.")

Anyway, good luck in your reading and thinking. Your post above is a very good indication to me of a sincere independent inquiring rational mind. That is always a good thing.

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 8/24, 10:46am)


Post 9

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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Ach, Michael, I hate it when I misspell someone's name!  My apologies.  I'll remember next time.  Thank you for your kind words.  Feel free to quote anything you like.  I'm not so credulous as to think that my (for want of a better word) paranormal experiences will be much endorsed by visitors to this forum.  They are nonetheless, the facts of my life.  I do my best to maintain rational clarity.  I'm sure you can imagine that rational clarity is not a major characteristic of those internet fora that embrace "psychic phenomena."  ;-)  Just doing the best I can with what I've got.
(Edited by Kevin Haggerty on 8/24, 11:15am)


Post 10

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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Fair enough Kevin. Thank you. And I do understand the need to not deny your own experience, regardless of what others may think

(psssssst. That also is Roark, not Roarke.)

Michael


Post 11

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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...Too many episodes of Fantasy Island when I was a kid, I guess...

"Smiles everyone, smiles!"


Post 12

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:49pmSanction this postReply
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Roger Bissell,
I often hear the objection that determinism undercuts punishment of crime or immorality. However, it is not "unfair" to punish a rights-violator...
Excellent point. I was thinking about posting something similar. I'm glad you did.

Post 13

Friday, August 26, 2005 - 1:20amSanction this postReply
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**Lengthy Post Alert (exceeds 1000 words -- read at your own risk)

Contra REB's Innate (or Happenstance) Desires -- Determinism [REB's I(or H)DD]

What follows is a series of quotes -- with short ad libs -- which present a view incommensurable with REB's I(or H)DD. Caps replace italics ...

T. Aquinas:
===============
Consequently man wills Happiness of necessity, nor can he will not to be happy, or to be unhappy. Now since choice is not of the end, but of the means ... it is not of the perfect good, which is Happiness, but of other particular goods. Therefore man chooses not of necessity, but freely.
===============
ad lib: Happiness is the ultimate good for everyone, everywhere, and for all time. We only CHOOSE the means to it (and we choose BETTER after learning and growing -- ie. our choices change, because of a freedom of our will to choose what it is that is better than previous notions, or desires, had pigeon-holed)


H. Bergson:
===============
For each of our acts we shall easily find antecedents of which it may in some sort be said to be the mechanical resultant. And it may equally well be said that each action is the realization of an intention. ... But if our action be one that involves the whole of our person and is truly ours, it could not have been foreseen, even though its antecedents explain it when once it has been accomplished. ... Mechanism and finalism are therefore, here, only external views of our conduct. They extract its intellectuality.
===============
ad lib: The 3rd-person view of consciousness is the subjective view of it. The 1st-person view (the one that doesn't "extract intellectuality") is the objective view of it.


F.H. Bradley:
===============
... you are free, because there is no reason which will account for your particular acts, because no one in the world, not even yourself, can possibly say what you will, or will not, do next. You are 'accountable', in short, because you are a wholly 'unaccountable' creature.
===============
ad lib: Oogala boogala. You absolutely couldn't have predicted that I'd say that -- here and now (ie. individuals are, at rock bottom, ultimately unpredictable -- even though TENDENCIES can be predicted).


D.C. Dennett:
===============
Only some of the portions of the physical universe have the property of being designed to resist their own dissolution, to wage a local campaign against the inexorable trend of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. ... some of these have the further capacity of [choosing] significant self-improvement (through learning). And fewer still have the open-ended capacity (requiring a language of self-description) for [choosing] 'radical self-evaluation'.
===============
ad lib: We "choose" to self-improve (ie. to grow) and we "choose" to radically self-evaluate (ie. to validate, or invalidate and throw out, each of our current values).


R. Descartes:
===============
If, however, I simply refrain from making a judgment in cases where I do not perceive the truth with sufficient clarity and distinctness, then it is clear that I am behaving correctly and avoiding error. But if in such cases I either affirm or deny, then I am not using my free will correctly.
===============
ad lib: In every hour of every day, we have the choice to think straight, or to evade the mental effort required to do this chosen task.


K. Jaspers:
===============
The will does not choose between good and evil; it is its choice, rather, that makes it good or evil. The act of choosing either liberates it, as good will, or enchains it as ill will. In neither case is there a choice between two possibilities; my will is its own original freedom or anti-freedom.
===============
ad lib: Only the moral ones can stomach free will. For the immoral (those who've chosen to take the path of ill will), anti-freedom is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and their actions -- exclusively -- ARE determined by circumstance.


I. Kant:
===============
Now I say that every being that cannot act except UNDER THE IDEA OF FREEDOM is just for that reason in a practical point of view really free, that is to say, all laws which are inseparably connected with freedom have the same force for him as if his will had been shown to be free in itself by a proof theoretically conclusive.
===============
ad lib: Reductio ad Absurdum or "re-affirmation through denial" -- whatever you like to call it, it is the one correct view of man's relation to reality.


Rand:
===============
He has the power to suspend, evade, corrupt or subvert his perception of reality ... (The use or misuse of his cognitive faculty determines a man's choice of values, which determine his emotions and his character. It is in this sense that man is a being of self-made soul.)
===============
ad lib: The fundamental choice is to focus (or not). And focus determines values, emotions, character, and everything else. It is man's choice (to focus) that determines man's values.


D.B. Rasmussen & D.J. Den Uyl:
===============
Both the choice to think and the creative element of thought are characterized by a process that is volitional and judgmental. What must, therefore, be insured by a system of rights is that those actions not be permitted which limit or destroy the free operation of choice and judgment in action; for any other principle of action would necessarily imply that something besides choice and judgment be the fundamental norm for human action. All this is to say that the moral propriety of attending to the world through the use of our conceptual faculty requires the freedom to act on our judgment. The right of free choice means the right to act on our choices.

[break]

Ethical rules do not tell us WHEN we are in a situation that calls for one or another of the rules. We must, therefore, use our judgment in those particular cases and choose accordingly. It is appropriate to conclude, then, that the volitional nature man's consciousness implies a principle of freedom.

[break]

In order to attribute moral worth to an individual's actions it is necessary that the individual be a moral agent, i.e., that his actions be chosen. Liberty is inherently connected with the process of moral perfection. Tibor Machan has made this point in the following way:

"The choice to learn, to judge, to evaluate, to appraise, to decide what he ought to do in order to live his life must be each person's own, otherwise he simply has no opportunity to excel or fail at the task."

[break]

The implication of the preceding remarks for social theory is that even though freedom permits evil actions as well as good ones, the ONLY way a society can properly be seen as moral is if its members CHOOSE the good.
===============
ad lib: There is a focus "yardstick" -- by which folks can, and ought to, be judged.

Ed

Post 14

Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Roger, I invite you to comment on my quotes. Here are my comments on your "quotes" ...

===============
I think that the lower animals are agents, too, though not deliberative agents. They, too, are the center, the wellspring of their actions, just like humans. And the specific aspect of their nature that determines what they, as agents, will do is their values.
===============

I disagree. The values of species of lower animals are all the same (they don't choose to value). A spider doesn't all of a sudden say to its arachnoid self: Damn these webs! That's it! From here on, I'm giving up on the web-weaving business. I'm no longer going to value it -- hmpf! But humans do often say: Damn this anti-life religion (or this politic)! That's it! From here on, I'm giving up on Communism. I'm no longer going to value it -- hmpf!


===============
while I maintain that we could not have done otherwise than we did in any given situation (unless we had chosen differently)
===============

We could not have done otherwise, except by choosing otherwise? I don't see this statement as stating anything besides complete and total freedom of the will -- was that an honest grammatical mistake on of yours, or a misconception of mine? Please clarify.


===============
I think we have to be very careful about using the term “moral responsibility.” I think it’s obvious that not everyone is morally responsible.
===============

This, again, doesn't sound quite right. If everyone were morally responsible -- then there would be no need for a concept of moral responsibility (in the same way that fish would never need a concept of water). It is the very fact that some don't choose to be thusly responsible, that gives rise to the needed distinction of the concept: moral responsibility.


===============
Any person can choose to be morally responsible, if he wants that more strongly than to not be morally responsible. But that “if” is the whole problem. Moral responsibility is not a given, not an inherent attribute of human beings, but a choice.
===============

But, not wanting to be morally responsible is, itself, immoral (and something should be done about it). Wanting what you need for a happy life -- and believe me, as a human on this planet, you will need to be morally responsible for this to occur -- is what morality is about.

Humans, if they want to live happily, must align their wants to include things they really need -- in order for happiness to ensue. Humans then, must learn the things that they would need to want -- in order to lead a happy life.


===============
However, it is not "unfair" to punish a rights-violator who couldn't help doing what he did (because he had not chosen to be morally responsible), any more than it is "unfair" to put to sleep a rabid dog that couldn't help doing what it did.
===============

I disagree with the analogy. Things (like dogs) that "couldn't help doing what they did" are things which are incapable of morality (which necessarily involves free will) -- morality doesn't apply to them. The question remains as to whether there really are things that we can rightfully call "adult humans" -- which are also incapable of morality.

There are 2 good reasons to punish moral agents -- when they've violated rights:

1. To deter

and

2. Because justice demands it

Just as merit deserves award, so too does wrongfulness deserve punishment. In short, good or bad, it is right for folks to get what they have earned.

Ed

Post 15

Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Only those two reasons? I would think that a third - to prevent the offender from again violating another's rights - is also relevant.

Post 16

Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 2:57pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

I had conceptualized the prevention of repeat offense -- under "To deter." Perhaps this is imprecise of me, but the way I see it, I can have my cake and eat it too, on this point. Though I do acknowledge your point about the special case of deterring repeat offenses.

Ed

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