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Post 0

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 7:30amSanction this postReply
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I liked this article to borrow from Eve, "very much". I love reading about peoples discovery of Rand. Eve thanks for this personal account.

John

Post 1

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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Dear Eve,
 
In you personal profile, you wrote:
 
"Just another girl on a perpetual quest to maintain the right to hold herself as her own highest value."
 
Do you think the self is the highest value in Objectivism? Thanks.
 
Joel Català


Post 2

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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Very vivid article!

I want to title it "Eve Shrugged," especially since you shrugged so much ache out of your life.

John

Post 3

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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Dear Eve,

Yes. I liked that idea very much too, and I felt as if I had already known it.

Thanks for sharing this and for being you.

Stephen


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 10:23pmSanction this postReply
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I am a little overwhelmed by the number of sanctions, and by the kind words.  Many thanks.

Joel,  I do think so.  I'm a little confused by the question, though, unless you are asking if I think that the tenets of Objectivism don't actually hold the self as the highest value, even though they claim to?

My profile is only an allusion to Rand's description of "moral ambitiousness" (pride) in "The Objectivist Ethics":

"It means that one must earn the right to hold oneself as one's own highest value by achieving one's own moral perfection -- which one achieves by never accepting any code of irrational virtues impossible to practice and by never failing to practice the virtues one knows to be rational -- by never accepting an unearned guilt and never earning any, or, if one has earned it, never leaving it uncorrected -- by never resigning oneself passively to any flaws in one's character -- by never placing any concern, wish, fear or mood of the moment over the reality of one's own self-esteem.  And, above all, it means one's rejection of the role of a sacrificial animal, the rejection of any doctrine that preaches self-immolation as a moral virtue or duty."

So my profile is a little imprecise, I suppose.  Obviously, I cannot say that I have never accepted any code of irrational virtues.  I can only promise that it will never happen again.


Post 5

Monday, June 13, 2005 - 10:54pmSanction this postReply
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Great article, Eve. I always enjoy reading or reminiscing about the early days of my encounter with Objectivism. I wish I had had the presence of mind to jot down my own thoughts and sentiments, but your article helped me vicariously relive those moments. Thanks.

Post 6

Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 3:50amSanction this postReply
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Ok, thank you for your reply, Eve. And don't be too harsh with yourself  ;-)

Joel Català


Post 7

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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Andrew and Joel, you are both most welcome, and your comments truly appreciated.


Post 8

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 6:44pmSanction this postReply
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Eve,

I finally got around to reading this. What an absolutely charming tale of discovery.

You are bewildered by the number of sanctions, but I ain't. You hit a nerve we have all felt - including the sense of relief of finding out that our own burden of doubt from just plain bad philosophy can be reversed so easily.

I have a feeling that this is one little article I will read more than once, especially when I need to be perked up. It is good to be reminded (as you so artfully do) that the natural state for a human being is joy. Simply release the spiritual shackles and the joy pops out all by itself.

Congratulations on a fine article.

Michael


Post 9

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 9:13pmSanction this postReply
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You hit a nerve we have all felt...

Well, not all of us... but it was a really good article, hence the sanction-a-thon.

Post 10

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 9:52pmSanction this postReply
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"Well, not all of us..."

Yes. I felt I was reading the values I already had being presented explicitly and forcefully by someone for the first time in my life. Bits and pieces from Robert Heinlein in many books, but BAM! all right there in one place by Ayn Rand. Very moving. I sanctioned you too Eve, even though I didn't have quite the same experience. I never bought the God thing, even as a child. Even though I felt strange about being so different from other people. It just made me want to be alone all of the time.

Funny, I see a big difference between the objectivist "converts" and the "loners" who discover objectivism. I find some of the "converts" a bit tiresome sometimes because their personalities still reflect the lack of individualism of their former lives. Like it's not ok to be different. It's so important to be RIGHT all the damn time. And that social darwinist crap. Sheesh. I've got to go to bed.

Post 11

Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 10:48pmSanction this postReply
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I don't know, Sarah. Maybe not all felt something similar to Eve, but I do not think the people who awarded all those sanctions did so merely for her skill as an article writer.

There was some serious identifying with the content going on around here.

Michael


Post 12

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Not to pick on you or Eve's wonderful article, but does everyone have "lost but now I'm found" story? Even allowing Rand to be the first to bring the ideas she presented into a coherent philosophy, the ideas were floating around out there before she came along. How about some personal responsibility? Take some credit for your own intelligence, I say. Sure Rand presented a wonderful vision of man, but you had the vision to see it. That's not something Rand did, that's something you did. Eve's vision is why I sanctioned the article, not Rand's.

Sarah

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

Are we talking about the same thing? I don't think so, but I will address your thoughts anyway:

To start with, I am long past a certain type of intellectual snobbishness of looking down on any genre and insinuating that it is superficial. If a "lost but now I'm found story" is a good one, then I identify with it. Sincerely, I have several from my own life. This does not just include the emotional impact of finding an organized set of ideas that corresponded to many of my own previous independent judgments over time, this also includes serious drug and alcohol addiction. Socrates said "know thyself." I personally have had to learn me the hard way. You see, I know how so very serious and painful being lost is - and what a relief it is to be found. When this is an actual experience, it is a wonderful feeling.

(Of course, there is an awful lot of melodramatic superficial schlock out there. I don't think this applies to Eve's story, though. I found it to be quite touching, since I identified strongly. Have you read The Romantic Manifesto - particularly Art and a Sense of Life? Or thought about Nathaniel Branden's Mutnik principle with literature like Eve's article?)

I will even go one step further in this line of reasoning. There is a wide range of emotions that is practically the monopoly of religious experience: devotion to a higher power, the "lost but now I'm found" feeling, the practice of prayer, empathy for suffering, benevolence toward all people in general, a sense of belonging, and the list goes on and on.

These are powerful drives within the human psyche. Objectivism has not addressed most of them in an organized manner. You can get a sampling in Ayn Rand's fiction, especially as she was such a brilliant mood creator and character craftsman. There her ideas spring to both rational and emotional life. They touch some strings in readers that religion normally usurps.

One of the absolutely amazing things about Solo is that with all the personal bickering and baseness (and yes, vulgarity - I even admit to a sporadic attraction to that persuasion), it is a sense of the exalted that is appealed to in reader's souls. There is nothing cheap about that feeling. From my perspective of coming back to the USA after a 30 year absence, I see that this is what has been missing in Objectivism for such a long time. You can now get it somewhere else other than The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. You can get it here. People like Eve write about it.

As to the rest of what you said, I get the notion that you are objecting to something you sense in my praise of Eve'e article that takes away from personal responsibility. It is not there, but I certainly share your concern, so I see where you are coming from.

When you touch the "religious" emotion nerve, you are dealing with powerful social organizing and personal mind-numbing capacities. If you don't watch out, an Objectivist hymn book, baptisms, formal missionary work, crusades in stadiums and a whole lot of similar activities will pop up. How about tithing? (If that ever happens, remind me to found the Universal Church of Rand as one of the Bishops!   //;-)

Ah yes, there is the deification of Ayn Rand. That has actually occurred in many people, but doing so severs the emotional ties of the practitioners to such an extent that they repress both "religious" emotions and other normal everyday living emotions. They become Randroids, devoid of all social skills and enmeshed in rationalizing all the time. It would be interesting to explore exactly why that happens - Ayn Rand leaves the human race in a person's mind and becomes an icon on an unattainable pedestal, and then the person also leaves the human race and becomes unhappy. Hmmmmm...

Back to Eve. As an Objectivist, I admit to liking the forbidden fruit of the tree of emotional knowledge that she so brilliantly served up. I believe that others liked the taste too. Sanction.

Michael

Post 14

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Frankly Michael, I don't know where you got the first half of your post out of my post. Furthermore, I wrote post 12 right after I rolled out of bed this morning so you'll have to factor in some extra pissiness and blurry thought from waking up. I think what I was talking about was more about Randroidism and the like, but I'm not really interested in bickering about a matter on which we agree. The point of the matter was, I liked Eve's article.

Sarah

Post 15

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 11:37amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

LOLOL...

I did detect a note of sarcasm in your post, but I guess I must have been feeling a bit pissy too, so I just let 'er fly without thinking about overkill. Some of the ideas in themselves are interesting, though.

Peace.

//;-)

Michael
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/16, 11:38am)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/16, 5:28pm)


Post 16

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah

"Even allowing Rand to be the first to bring the ideas she presented into a coherent philosophy, the ideas were floating around out there before she came along."

Very true. My own discovery of Rand's philosophy was more about her giving a concrete shape to general ideas I had already embraced in my life. I thought to myself "Finally, I found someone who put these principles into words!!"

Obviously Rand's work was monumental, and my own philosophy for living was rife with contradictions at the time I discovered her. The key here is that she didn't really bring me to a new system as much as she gave shape to the one I was already pursuing.

Like Eve, many objectivists credit Rand for inspiring an entirely new way of living. This is terrific!! There are those like me, however, who had a head start and just needed a fellow traveler like Rand to make things more explicit.

Dave



Post 17

Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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When I first sent this in, I wasn't sure if it was article material, and I included in an accompanying note to the editor, "I doubt that the sentiments involved are that unusual, either, since I had merely taken to their logical conclusions the all-too-common flawed premises I'd been so foolish as to accept. Yet, if there are any who might enjoy hearing how amazing it was for me to discover a life-affirming view of the world, perhaps they frequent this forum."

It's been marvelous to find that so many people here have enjoyed it, even if they had or haven't had similar experiences.  My hat is off to those who did a better job than I of recognizing and rejecting those flaws on their own.

Is it too repetitive to further express my gratitude to those who've taken the time to voice their approval since I last commented on the comments here?  I hope not, and I'd rather err on the side of redundancy than impoliteness.  So . . .  Thank you!


Post 18

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:40amSanction this postReply
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I don't know if I was ever smart enough to have the contradictions you describe collide quite as violently in my own head, but your story sounds fairly similar to mine. 

Now, when I observe the angst and turmoil in people that results from attempting to live within those types of contradictions, it amazes me a bit.

The most important revolution in Objectivism won't ever be political or economic or artistic (or even philosophical, in an academic sense).  It is the personal revolution you describe:  once you really believe that you are living for yourself, and asking no favors, there are so many things that wash away... but I am still too cheap to turn the heat above 55.


Post 19

Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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This is a really touching article.  So honest.  Good writing.

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