RoR: Forum

A wonderful article, Jennifer, thanks.

George

Post 2

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 3:13am

Very young children learn at an incredible rate. It is fascinating to watch them develop. So many things we take for granted should not be taken for granted. I remember once that one of my daughters when very little recognized a very fanciful cartoonish lion to be a lion, just as she recognized a lion in a photo of a lion. In thinking through how one would make that association, I was really amazed at the thinking that went into it.

I was also impressed by the willingness to and the interest in exploration by young children, which often is later retarded by adults trying to over-protect children.

Still another thought is this: just as it is very useful for young children to have an environment safe enough for exploration, so too is it useful for adults to create environments in which they can put forth their ideas without undue worry that they will be met with invective. Creativity and exploration are diminished when the environment becomes too harsh. We recognize this for children, but it is also the case for adults. For instance, in my laboratory if I am to have staff members who will throw their ideas into the pot as we discuss a materials failure, it is not at all helpful in the long run if I say "That is a really stupid thing to say." Maybe it is, maybe it is not, because I have been known to be wrong. The main reason it is stupid for me to say such a thing is this: I do not hire stupid people. The next idea they may have may be very good or even critical. So, it is much wiser to say "No, I don't think so, since ....... Do you see what I mean?" We want to encourage people to give us their ideas, just as we want children to develop their ideas.

So, an adult wise enough to see this need for Livy, should be able to see the same need at SOLO HQ.

Post 3

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 3:17am

Jennifer, the most wonderful experience of my life was the raising of my two daughters. For twenty-two years, it was the primary focus of my life and took precedent over career and all other concerns. I love being a dad.

Post 4

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 3:17am

Jennifer,

This is one of the most pleasantly surprising articles I have yet to read at SOLOHQ :-)

Now, if Linz'll just come around on this issue...;-)

MH

Post 5

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 3:40am

You mean you want me to "come round" on my view that all children should be drowned at birth & their careless parents horsewhipped for spawning such hideous creatures?

I've already come round to this extent�that the infantile attention-seeking, solipsism & hissy-fit-throwing I find insufferable in children is actually worse among adults. But that only reinforces the view that they should have been drowned at birth. :-)

I'm happy to make an exception for Livy on the strength of what's been reported here. Is she the Elmores' child? Whatever, I'll even bestow NEM status on Livy & exempt her parents from the whipping, though *Mr* Elmore is currently being spanked on another matter.

Will that do? :-)

Linz

Post 6

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 3:56am

Well it's a start ;-)

My disagreement is when you say stuff like "all children should be drowned at birth & their careless parents horsewhipped for spawning such hideous creatures" (emphasis mine).

But children are all individuals and ought to be judged as such. Some, like Livy, are deserving of NEM status.

On the other hand, two children (probably young teens to be exact) outside my local newsagent Thursday morning enquired as to whether I would mind procuring tobacco from the newsagent on their behalf, and proceeded to address me with a slang term pertaining to female genitalia when I politely declined to co-operate. Drowning at birth's a tad over the top ;-) But they of course are a whole different matter...

MH

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 6/11, 3:57am)

Post 7

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 4:41am

So you want me to say the *occasional* child should be exempt from drowning? I'll go along with that, on condition that certain prerequisites be met:

1) The infant must turn down the sides of its mouth, scream unendurably and poo its pants when rap is played.

2) Ditto when shown a photograph of Saddam Hussein or any of the people on this forum who believe Saddam should not have been toppled.

3) Its eyes must light up and pulse quicken when any of the musical good guys regularly eulogised on SOLOHQ are played.

4) It must vomit profusely when shown posts of the "be nice to everybody regardless" variety.

5) It must fart & burp simultaneously, continuously, loudly & unashamedly when any of the following words are uttered: "academia," "Navigator," "Binswanker-Warts," "Eminem," "MBA," "therapy," "empowering," "Myers-Briggs," "Franklin Covey," "Your inner Doris Day," "Paglia" (special yawn as well on "Paglia") "sushi" and "tofu."

6) The first word it must articulate is, "Bullshit," since most of what it will be presented with is precisely that.

Will *that* do?? :-)

Post 8

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 5:15am

I know that both Jennifer and I have had contact with young children all our lives - due to family circumstances.

However, just when I think I know everything about the annoying behaviour of most young children - an extraordinary child like Livy does come along.

My niece is just eight years old and she is such an example. I have been astonished how from birth until now she has continually been one of the most intelligent and well-behaved children I know. She excels in everything she does. From school work to her ballet classes. This is despite the fact that her parents led very hectic lives. Her parents are not models of discipline or organization at all, but she is.

However, now they have a second child, a boy. He is far more reckless, naughty and disruptive than his sister. People nod their heads knowingly when I tell them this and say, "Ah. that's boys for you."

So is a child's temperament determined by their environment, sex or inborn personality?
I haven't worked that one out yet. Probably a combination of several different factors I guess.

By the way, Linz I bought her the CD of "Peter and the Wolf" by Prokofiev as a present and she loved it. Does that count for something in your list?

Post 9

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 5:24am

Marcus:

So is�a child's temperament determined by their environment, sex or inborn personality?

Why wait to find out?

Linz

Post 10

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 5:24am

Linz, no it won't do, as you're violating the crow epistemology & revealing your bureaucratic underbelly in going all the way out to 6 pre-reqs. Rules,rules,rules. No parent can remember 6 things. Your first principle was simple & catchy. Have you been reading too much of the EU constitution? And not any Paglia?

Post 11

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 5:29am

I'm happy to make an exception for Livy on the strength of what's been reported here. Is she the Elmores' child? Whatever, I'll even bestow NEM status on Livy & exempt her parents from the whipping...

She is, and for all those who thought "permissive" parents would create an anxious child, may I say that she is the most serene one I've ever encountered. I'm looking forward -- nay, eager -- to see her again. Who knew.

::::::::Off to call Satan to explain the icicles:::::::::

Post 12

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 5:41am

Jennifer, your Livy's a credit to her parents, who protect her, but don't let themselves be obstacles to her growing independence. Great to see.

Post 13

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 5:59am

Why wait to find out?

Ha! How would the world cope with that?

Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and no one can keep with me :-)

Post 14

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 5:59am

Thanks to all for your comments.

I would like to point out one thing, however. Marcus, though your niece may be independent and well-behaved, she will likely grow up to hold many of the same mistaken premises absorbed by most of the population. The reason for my writing this entire piece is to exemplify that Livy will not -- it goes beyond her being well-behaved. She will be rational.

After returning from my visit with the Elmores, I could not help but sit and marvel at what I had just seen. Aquinas can attest to my amazement, as I chewed his ear off for quite some time afterward about the entire phenomenon, imagining what she would be like as an adult.

I'm still getting over it. :)

Post 15

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:05am

Marcus, though your niece may be independent and well-behaved, she will likely grow up to hold many of the same mistaken premises absorbed by most of the population.

Yes, but Jennifer you are forgetting about the rational guidance of her Uncle :-)

Not only that, but she may have also discovered the irrationality of those views on her own.
How many of us had parents or relatives that pointed us in the right direction?

Post 16

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:07am

Linz:

Will *that* do?? :-)

Yes, it'll do...for now ;-)

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 6/11, 6:09am)

Post 17

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:09am

Actually, dispensing with the drowning humour now, friends of mine have three children just like Livy. Musically, these kids are super-talented as well. I can't wait to see what adulthood holds for them.

Linz

Post 18

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:11am

(Linz, are you aware that you just typed that out loud?)

::::::Off to call Satan again::::::

It's gonna be a long day. :)

(Edited by Jennifer Iannolo on 6/11, 6:12am)

Post 19

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:22am