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Post 20

Monday, May 16, 2005 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

Robert Davison IS making ridiculous claims and arguments, and he knows it. He is just doing it to provoke pointless argument. Robert Davison is the Evolution Troll. Want evidence? Try searching solo for "Davison Evolution".

Post 21

Monday, May 16, 2005 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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Robert D.:
If rodents appear 5 times as early as previously thought does not shake things up, they can not be shaken.
There is no quota on how many times rodent-like "leaves" appear on the evolutionary "tree". Eyes have evolved about a dozen times each independently of the other. Wings have evolved at least 3 times (birds, bats, insects). The monarch and viceroy butterflies look exactly the same to the layman, but are completely different species. Bonobos and chimpanzees were confused with each other until 1933 - also different species. None of these examples "shake up" evolution.

And speaking of rodents, there is no need to bring up 5 or more versions of rodents from the past. We have enough species at present... Mus musculus, Rattus rattus, Rattus exulans, etc. ...and genera...Mus, Rattus, Microtus, Arvicola, Pitymys, Ondrata, Myocastor, etc.... to "shake up" evolution, if evolution was ever shaken up by a parade of small furry creatures.

Kurt E. asked you on your position on how species came to be. You replied:
I have none. Nor does anyone else.
Before evolution, all these species were like "leaves" floating on air, created in an instant by god. Evolution is the "tree" that connects the leaves. What you are stating is that the ignorance we had before is comparable (desirable?) to the knowledge we have now. That is not a rational position to take.

Is there an empirical proof that would convince you that evolution essentially correct? If yes... (a requirement!)

Short of elephants evolving before your eyes or fossils rising alive out of the grave, what kind of proof for speciation do you require? (Astronomers are not required to 'create' stars after all, nor geologists the earth)



PS

Science is not like politics, where people can agree to disagree. It is like evolution. Would a lion care to 'agree to disagree' with someone it thinks is lunch? No! (Bite & Gulp) Similarly, anyone who cares to join the science party should expect to be bludgeoned repeatedly, unrelentingly, and mercilessly. Only those ideas that have evolved close enough to truth will survive the process. Never thought those becloaked in white lab garments could be so... neanderthal? They are. They just evolved "manners". :-)

Woogah, woogah!!!



PPS

DM Gores, I wrote much of my response before I realized you had another post on the next page. Haven't searched "Davison Evolution" yet. I'll give him one more round of "woogah, woogah" before I see a troll evolve.

Woogah, woogah, woogah!!!

Post 22

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 7:05amSanction this postReply
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[Kurt Eichert:] "Joel, you appear to be a religious person." 

I actually think I am a spiritual person. I understand spirituality as the awareness of the immaterial connection between the physical world and the human mind.


[Kurt Eichert:] "However, I would ask you something that is undisputed in the fossil record:

"1.  Species existed and flourished on the Earth, and they no longer live."

Fine. That's survival and extinction of species. Very well stablished by scientific knowledge.


[KE:] "2.  Other species, not seen before, and often very similar, appeared later."

[The Book of Genesis says something very close to that. According to Moses, the five books of Moses (the Torah, or Pentateuch) should be read "as a poem" --namely, not literally. Here I must recall the great book "Genesis and the Big Bang", by Gerald Schroeder, a nuclear physicist.]

"Similarity" is a very subjective and undefined word in this context. Actually, a human is genetically very very similar to an amoeba, or a tree. But we know there are huge differences.

"To appear" is the key point in your sentence. How species "appear"? And the Big Ones: how and why life "appeared"?


"3.  How, then, did these new species appear?

"If not via a process of Evolution, they must have simply what?" 

Evolution by mutation plus natural selection can explain a portion of the fossil record.

But another portion is still scientifically unexplained. The Cambrian explosion is a huge question mark.


"Appeared in a puff of smoke?" 

Well, black magic is certainly an unlikely explanation of the origin of life. But the birth of life by random reordering of the "bricks of life" (aminoacids, etc.) is a possibility with a probability too much close to zero to be true.

Two big questions are left:

How is that life appeared (and flourished with astounding success) from an oddly successful combination of molecules, if the possibility of randomness can practically be ruled out? How human consciousness appeared from the living automats that all the remaining earthly living beings are?


"Therefore, there is no "faith" involved, what is involved is discovering how one species changed in some fashion into a new one."

Of course, some changes in species can be explained by a more or less Darwinian process of evolution.

But, well, if the reordering of the "bricks of life" that gave place to life are arguably not random, nor evolutionary, and imply the necessary existence of a set of "smart" rules.

The existence of that, and only that, set of "finely-tuned" rules in our Universe smacks of the existence of a Creator. 

Of course, the existence of a Creator can not be proved: it requires faith (indeed, it is written that "man cannot know Me while alive" [Exodus, 32:21.])

So faith might be involved. I tend to think that it actually is, perhaps because I very often remember Chesterton's bright sentence "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing --they believe in anything". Replace "anything" with "Darwinian evolution", and you will have a taste of what I currently think on the mainstream view of evolution.




 





Post 23

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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 To all,

 

For Gores, specifically, your ad hominem attacks are uncalled for.  To respond in kind: when you are dry behind the ears, you may begin to appreciate how little you know.

 

Quotes involving the evolution of the horse:

 

"The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information." —*David Raup, "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology, " in The Field Museum of Natural History. January 1979, p. 25.

 

"The difference between Eohippus and the modern horse is relatively trivial, yet the two forms are separated by sixty million years and at least ten genera and a great number of species. If ten genera separate Eohippus from the modem horse then think of the uncountable myriads there must have been linking such diverse forms as land mammals and whales or molluscs and arthropods. Yet all these myriads of life forms have vanished mysteriously, without leaving so much as a trace of their existence in the fossil record." —*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1985), pp. 85-86.

"[Othniel C.] Marsh's classic unilineal (straight-line) development of the horse became enshrined in every biology textbook and in a famous exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History. It showed a sequence of mounted skeletons, each one larger and with a more well-developed hoof than the last. (The exhibit is now hidden from public view as an outdated embarrassment.)

 

"Almost a century later, paleontologist George Gaylord Simpson reexamined horse evolution and concluded that generations of students had been misled. In his book Horses, he showed that there was no simple, gradual unilineal development at all . . It was an easy mistake to make, since only one genus of horse is left today, Equus. Marsh arranged his fossils to 'lead up' to the one surviving species, blithely ignoring many inconsistencies and any contradictory evidence. Ironically, his famous reconstruction of horse evolution was copied by anthropologists. They, too, thought they saw a straight-line lineage 'leading up' to the sole surviving species of a once-varied group: Homo Sapiens." —*R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 222.

 

"Traditionally, fossil-hunters had sought magnificent specimens for their museums and exhibited them as a series of individuals, like O.C. Marsh's famous linear 'progression' of individual horse skeletons. Simpson made the evolution of the horse one of his specialties; his detailed quantitative studies, published in his classic book, Horses (1951), exploded Marsh's 'single-line' evolution of the horse from a fox-sized, hoofless ancestor." —*R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 406.

 

"The evolution of the horse—both in textbook charts and museum exhibits—has a standard iconography. Marsh began this traditional display in his illustration for Huxley. In doing so, he also initiated an errs that captures pictorially the most common of all misconceptions about the shape and pattern of evolutionary change.

 

"Each genus is itself a bush of several related species, not a rung on a ladder of progress. These species often lived and interacted in the same area at the same time (as different species of zebra do in Africa today.) One set of strata in Wyoming, for example, has yielded three species of Meeohippus and two of Miohippus, all contemporaries.

"The species of these bushes tend to arise with geological suddenness and then to persist with little change for long periods. Evolutionary change occurs at the branch points themselves, and trends are not continuous marches up ladders, but concatenations of increments achieved at nodes of branching on evolutionary bushes.

 

"Bushiness now pervades the entire phylogeny of horses.

"The model of the ladder is much more than merely wrong. It never could provide the promised illustration of evolution as progressive and triumphant, for it could only be applied to unsuccessful lineages." —*Steven Jay Gould, "Life's Little Joke," in Natural History April 1987, p. 2425.

 

"We now know that the evolution of the horse did not always take a simple path. In the first place it is not clear that Hyraootherium was the ancestral horse. Thus Simpson (1945) states, 'Matthew has shown and insisted that Hyraootherium (including Eohippus) is so primitive that it is not more definitely squid than taparid, rhinocerotid,' etc., but it is customary to place it at the root of the squid group." —*G. Kerkut, Implications of Evolution (1960), p. 149.

 

"The most famous of all squids trends, 'gradually reduction of the side toes' is flatly fictitious. There was no such trend in any line of Equidae. Eocene horses all had digitigrade padded, doglike feet with tour functional toes in front and three behind. In a rapid transition (not actually represented by fossils), early Oligocene horses lost one functional front toe and concentrated weight a little more on the middle hoot as a step-off point. This type persisted without essential change in all browsing horses." —*George Gaylord Simpson, Major Features of Evolution (1953), p. 263.

 

"Also the fossils of these horses are widely scattered in Europe and North America. There is no place where they occur in rock layers, one above another. There is no sequence that would indicate that the largest developed from the smallest. Some of the difference in size may be accounted for by the difference in feed. In 1942, a herd of horses was found in a box canyon in Southern California. Three of them were caught and lifted out with ropes and pulleys. Due to poor feed, their backs were no higher than a table. Later a colt was born to these captives, and with good feed it grew much larger than its parents. Since a difference in size due to feed is an acquired characteristic, it is not inherited and does not account for permanent changes in a species." —I. N. Moors and H. E. Slusher, Biology: A Search for Order and Complexity.

 _____

 

But, these quotes are tiring to read.  I could mount as many from reputable scientists on many other difficulties with established think about evolution.

 

A couple:

 

The Archaeopteryx  seems to bear out the Darwinian concept of birds having evolved from small reptiles, specifically the Coelosaur.  Coelosaurs, in common with most other dinosaurs, did not posses collar bones. Archaeopteryx had collar bones. Collar bones are a requirement for birds (or bats) to support the pectorals and the wings.

 

But even this is moot, as the archaeopteryx is considered to have been a fraud. Since 1980, virtually all prominent scientists who have studied the fossils have charged that the two Archaeopteryx fossils with visible feathers are forgeries.

 ____

 

 

Darwinists said that if you analyse the DNA you will find how closely or distantly species are related.  Animals closely related, such as two reptiles, would have greater similarity in their DNA than animals that are not so closely related.  In 1981, molecular biologists at Ann Arbor University decided to test this hypothesis. They took the alpha hemoglobin DNA of a snake and a crocodile said by Darwinists to be closely related, and the hemoglobin DNA of a farmyard chicken.

 

They found that the two animals who had the least DNA sequences in common were the snake and the crocodile, only around 5%, one twentieth of their hemoglobin DNA. The two creatures whose DNA was closest were the crocodile and the chicken, where there were 17.5% of sequences in common, nearly one fifth. The DNA similarities were the reverse of that predicted by Darwinists, according to Colin Patterson in a presentation to the American Natural History Museum in November 1981

______

 

 

I could go on with this, but since I am not being paid, I will not do your research for you.

 


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Post 24

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 6:32pmSanction this postReply
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I have tons of things to do but can not let this go uncommented.


 

Modern genetic studies have shown that reptile is a polyphyletic group of species, i.e., they do not have an isolated evolutionary lineage. Thus strictly speaking, reptile is not a valid phylogenetic group. See "what is a reptile" here, and the links and references contained within.


 




Post 25

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 8:58pmSanction this postReply
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To all (who are interested in integrating evidences of speciation, not disintegrating them)...

Link

Post 26

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 6:22amSanction this postReply
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Mrs. Hong,

Of course, but you only prove my point.  Ten years ago, before DNA tests were clearly established, you would not have made that argument and would have opposed anyone else making it.

Sadly, this is not an example of openess on the part of Darwinists.  

A technique that was developed in a different field forced the issue; it took force to get evolutionists to abandon the position they had accepted on faith for well over a century. 

wolf


Post 27

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 6:31amSanction this postReply
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Num++

In my oppinion, you are exceedingly preoccupied with preserving the status quo.


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Post 28

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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Joel said "Well, black magic is certainly an unlikely explanation of the origin of life. But the birth of life by random reordering of the "bricks of life" (aminoacids, etc.) is a possibility with a probability too much close to zero to be true."

I have several points to make about this, perhaps a different way of thinking about it then you have considered.

1. You are assuming it is only random. There are several theories for how life started that are still Darwinian, for example the replicating clay crystal theories of Cairns-Smith.

2. You cannot speak about probability by looking at the odds alone and ignoring the sample space.

Suppose we are discussing the lottery. The odds are 50 million to one, so surely that is close enough to zero so that no one will win. Suppose 100 million play. Now it looks pretty good that someone will win.

Now, what is the sample space for life starting up? Wrong. Guess again. Still wrong. Try again.

We have no clue whatsoever what this sample space is.

How many primoridal lakes and streams and ponds contained the potential for life? Over how long a period?

Not enough?

Well, You can't just look at the earth, there is an entire universe out there. How many millions upon millions of planets had the spotential, with perhaps only success on this one planet from all the billions out there?

Still not enough?

You cannot just look at this iteration of the big bang. Maybe we have had a billion Big Bangs and Big Crunch's (I know this theory is no longer fasionable, but that only helps my point we still do not know), all lifeless, untill just this one time on earth.

For all we know, this could have gone on an infinite amount of time, and if it infinite, then it does not matter one whit how unlilkely it is to occur, because not only will life occur, but it will occur an infinite amount of times.


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Post 29

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Davidson - What does one say to something like Post 23, which consists of absolutely zero content from Mr. Davidson, it is nothing more than a bunch of out-of-context quotes.  You and Mr. Spirit have given 0 reasons or mechanisms for species change, and when you admit to "small changes" as possible, cannot small changes x long time = large changes?  Kind of like erosion, no one notices it but it can make an entire mountain chain disappear over time.  Bottom line is you offer zero content here, hence your deignation as a troll seems justified by the empirical evidence.  At least Mr. Spirit admits what he is.

Post 30

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt:

You don't read very accurately as evidenced by your on-going inability to spell my name correctly.

What you call 'a bunch of out of context quotes' all deal with a single subject; the evolution of the horse.  If you can't find context in that, the fault lies with you.

The second item in the post debunks the archeopteryx as a transitional species.

The 3rd that the so-called family trees developed by evolutionists do not hold up to the scutiny of DNA testing.

I don't know how much more 'content' you could ask for. 

One can not reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into in the first place.


Post 31

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
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Me... preserve status quo? LOL! If it were up to me, I'll sentence all ID-followers to dig for fossils for the rest of their lives. That will be an improvement on the 'status quo'.

Clinal Variations (from the link) are a significant discovery. Kind of kills the "but where are the missing links?" mantra of some people.

Robert D., do you have any alternative theories to refute clinal variations and ring species?


In my oppinion, we should all check our spelling.


Post 32

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Num++

It is all in how you define speciation.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

The assumption here is that I am trying to debunk evolution.  My interest in this subject is entirely different.  You can stop circling the wagons.

My beef is that 'science' is an exclusive club designed to protect it's credentialed members from criticism.  Outsiders with some very good ideas/observations etc. are automatically dismissed, if not publicly lynched, not for the quality of their ideas, but for the paucity of their credentials.  In other words, they have not collected the proper box tops. I am arguing not against evolution per sae, but rather the tyranny of the majority.  


Post 33

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Davison, apologies on the name, I have limited time to make these posts, and I think I have fewer spelling errors than most posters do in general - this being a proper noun made it easier for me to err.

This last point about science being dismissive of outside ideas, perhaps, is what you would do better to focus on, because I think there is some evidence of that.  However, in the absence of any reasonable alternative, ID is no better than saying "God did it" as far as science goes.  Unless I did detailed research on the evolution of the horse, that series of quotes does nothing for me.  My interest was to discover if someone had some reasonable, plausible alternative for the evidence of various species, and I see none.


Post 34

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

All is forgiven.

I find no viable alternative either, and I am a lot more comfortable now that evolutionists have given up their straight line descent theory.  Darwin is yesterday's mashed potatoes, Ptolemaic cosmology.

 As Mrs. Hong wrote:

Modern genetic studies have shown that reptile is a polyphyletic group of species, i.e., they do not have an isolated evolutionary lineage.


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Post 35

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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[Steve:] “1. You are assuming it is only random. There are several theories for how life started that are still Darwinian, for example the replicating clay crystal theories of Cairns-Smith.”

 

After (a little) search in the internet, I found that Cairns-Smith has asserted that inorganic membranes might have preceded organic compounds in the development of the precursors to life.

 

Of couse, we know there are self-replicating, inorganic structures. And they most probably have preceded organic molecules as RNA o DNA.

 

I have no issue in the probability of self-replicating structures; and hopefully, science one day will explain the fundamental stuff about that.

 

Bu the complexity of the processes required for the formation of an amoeba from the “primeval soup” is astonishing. Think only about a proteins, and their chicken-and-egg problem with the RNA (which is a macromolecule). 

 

A central question, which I think science is not capable of explaining, is how is that those so finely-tuned mechanisms appeared. Then you apply (perhaps unadvertedly) your “philosofical mindset”. I think they did not appear by chance. That’s all.

 


[Steve:] “2. You cannot speak about probability by looking at the odds alone and ignoring the sample space.


“[...]

 

“We have no clue whatsoever what this sample space is.“


Well, the sample space for the origin of life is definitely not the whole universe. Possibly, only earth-like planets. Less than you think. Our planet is in a very special place of the universe, of the galaxy, etc... and all with the righ timing.

 

 

[Steve:] How many primoridal lakes and streams and ponds contained the potential for life? Over how long a period?


If you are suggesting that terrestrial life arrived here from extraterrestrial “lakes and ponds”, that’s really improbable, taking into account the distances between earth-like planets in the universe and the age of the unverse.

 

If you mean “lakes and ponds” on earth, then indeed you will have reduced the avaliable time span and the available space for the birth of life very very much...

 

 

[Steve:] Well, You can't just look at the earth, there is an entire universe out there. How many millions upon millions of planets had the spotential, with perhaps only success on this one planet from all the billions out there?

 

See my reply above. Very improbable that (a) that life, since its birth in another planet, would have reached planet Earth 4,500 years ago, and then found the appropriate conditions to flourish again.


But, still, notice that in this way you are only shifting the problem of the origin of life to another planet.



[Steve:] You cannot just look at this iteration of the big bang. Maybe we have had a billion Big Bangs and Big Crunch's (I know this theory is no longer fasionable, but that only helps my point we still do not know), all lifeless, untill just this one time on earth.

 

We have still not found any trace of the needed matter (the critical mass) to produce that oscillating universe. The universe is, most arguably, expanding indefinitely (an open universe).



[Steve:] For all we know, this could have gone on an infinite amount of time, and if it infinite, then it does not matter one whit how unlilkely it is to occur, because not only will life occur, but it will occur an infinite amount of times.

 

Not correct: Is in this universe where life has appeared. And you don’t have infinite time: you have about 15,000 million years. (Time begun when energy begun to convert into mass.)


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Post 36

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,
You have no understanding whatsoever about logic, scientific definition, scientific method, or scientific progress. You don't know at all what I was talking about. Dean Michael and Adam Reed were exactly right that you are a troll.

The fact that we use terms such as lineage, phylogeny, family-tree, etc., in modern genetics and evolution biology already assumes implicit validity of Darwian Evolution theory. There is no other alternative so far, not by a long shot. Yes, the details of the tree of life get modified all the time base on new and more reliable data, but the principle that all life originated from a common ancestor has never changed.



Post 37

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 3:18pmSanction this postReply
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Hong Zhang wrote:
...but the principle that all life originated from a common ancestor has never changed.
Really? That sounds like something that the anti-darwinists would charge. Are you really claiming that the life forms that live at the bottom of the ocean near some very high heat sources have the same ancestor as humans? Are you really claiming that there was only one instance where life emerged from inorganic matter? Somehow I doubt that claim can be supported.

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Post 38

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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"Are you really claiming that there was only one instance where life emerged from inorganic matter? Somehow I doubt that claim can be supported."

Great, we go from some people claiming that even one instance of life starting spontaneously on earth sometime during its 4 billion year history is so unlikely that it is virtually impossible, to claiming that it's unlikely that it happened only once. I think that the genetic material that all life shares on earth is so similar that the accepted explanation is that there is a common ancestor. That if other life spontaneously appeared in some other form it could not compete with essentially what we are and share with virtually all other life on earth.

I haven't been involved in this thread, but I'd like to say that evolution, as commonly accepted by scientist's today is the most interesting and exciting scientific theory there is. Every single day there are more discoveries being made, more pieces of the puzzle being discovered and literally thousands of people like Hong trying to fit the puzzle pieces together and see the whole picture. For some people to claim because the whole picture is not completely clear yet, at least as far as they're concerned, that this theory should be replaced with some kind of mystical non-explanation is sheer, pure stupidity.

Post 39

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Mike, that's a good one. Well said.

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