About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unread


Post 0

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 2:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yeah, and one of them came within two points of being President of the United States, and another is doing a book tour on "My Life, So Far". We let the activists and protestors walk among us as heroes.

Post 1

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 4:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The link doesn't seem to be working.

Post 2

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yeah - the link is not working here either.....

Post 3

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This may be the same article:

http://www.matus1976.com/politics/vietnam/free_vietnam.htm

Post 4

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The link is hopefully working now.


Post 5

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 4:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mike Erickson said:
This may be the same article:

http://www.matus1976.com/politics/vietnam/free_vietnam.htm
Yeah, it is generally the same, I wrote both of them and that is my web site (www.matus1976.com)

The www.april30.org link was not referencing properly.  Try typing it in if the solohq auto generated link doesnt work.

Michael F Dickey


Post 6

Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 11:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for an interesting article. The Vietnam War is so often held up in America as a huge wrong-headed failure, but looking at the consequences of abandonment really questions the PC analysis.

Post 7

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael, thank you so much for this article.  This past weekend, I read Jane Fonda's latest book (it was laying around the kitchen at the company where I work, so I grabbed it out of curiosity).  I am still in a state of shock at how this woman protrays the North Vietnamese as the most peaceloving and sweetest people (they sang songs together!!) on earth.  Americans, of course, are ruthless killers.

Guess the 7.5 million killed by the communists died with a song in their heart!

It's amazing how many people don't want to see the truth.


Ginny


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 12:26amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

Thank you for that reminder. It is important to remember these things - like what happens after you turn a country lose to the mercy of brutal monsters. And what happens to surrounding countries. That whole war was a monument to complete mismanagement by our side, starting from philosophy and going all the way to the pullout.

We can never let something like that happen again. Period.

It would do those who advocate wholesale pullout of Iraq right now to contemplate these lessons.

As if they would care anyway. Better leave them to reading the Fonda memoirs...

Michael


Post 9

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Thanks for an interesting article. The Vietnam War is so often held up in America as a huge wrong-headed failure, but looking at the consequences of abandonment really questions the PC analysis
And it gets even more interesting when you start comparing it to the Korean War. 

Consider about the same number of Americans died  - 54,000 in Korea  57,000 in Vietnam, even though American troop involvement in Vietnam lasted more than twice as long (4 years vs 10 years).  The number of civilans killed was probably much higher in Korea, as was the number of foriegn troops killed.  Consider the Korean war memorial plaque says "Our nation honors her sons and daughters who answered the call to defend a country they never knew and a people they never met" http://www.aalgar.com/graphics/travel/041801/korea.jpg Something that could very well be said of Vietnam veterans.  Yet the Vietnam war memorial is a list of the people who died, in the order that they died, dug into the ground.  Both were examples of a communist superpower backed north launching offensive aggresions against a market based, albiet dictatorial, south.  Both were cultures and peoples very alien to the West.  In the first case we won, and the South continues to exist and is one of the greatest and most startling examples of democracy and markets in action in the world today, home to the worlds 11th largest economy.  Compare that to the North, arguably the worst country on the planet.  South Vietnam had won its war, and stood alone defending itself for two years after the US withdrew militarily after signing a peace treaty with the North (which, surprisingly, the north violated, even after the north vietnamese general recieved the nobel peace prize) 

Even worse, in 1973 it awarded the prize to Le Duc Tho, the North Vietnamese Communist, who, along with Ho Chi Minh and other Party leaders, imposed a vicious Communist dictatorship in North Vietnam that slaughtered at least 50,000 Vietnamese in the 1950s and then invaded and conquered South Vietnam. All told, the death toll caused by that Communist dictatorship and its warring totaled two million individuals - http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1977
His figures err on the low side, and do not count the dead from Vietnams aggressive wars launched against Laos and Cambodia.
By the time of Nixon's resignation however, the democratically controlled congress had made it illegal to send any aide to indochina, dealing the death blow to the people of South Vietnam. 

That whole war was a monument to complete mismanagement by our side, starting from philosophy and going all the way to the pullout.

Indeed, there was certainly a lot of problems with the way the war was fought.  However I disagree with Rand on Vietnam, and the idea that we did not have a philosophical basis for the war applied to Korea just as well, yet that war was succesfull.  Fostering the growth of democracies is a clear act of self defense, something not recognized in the cold war era times.  'Realists' preferred the 'stability of dictatorships' over the chance of electrions putting non friendly extremists into power (a complaint often made against Iraq now)  With North Korea, Vietnam, Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, etc etc etc that doctrine has clearly proven itself completely and utterly wrong.  The stability of dictatorships is clearly an oxymoron.

Michael Dickey


Post 10

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 10:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ideology knows no end,Ginny....

Post 11

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Okay, Robert, but couldn't we set limits to sheer stupidy and blindness?
Nice fantasy, there.

Gin


Post 12

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I was speaking more particularly about Jane Fonda - those in the vietnamese were allowed to go as they did only to the extent that reality, in the sense of economic survivalness or political concurrencies, let them... sadly, in some cases, as with the khymer rouge [sic], it went on much more than expected - but that was again as much the area being a backwater spot which allowed such due to little worth of it being considered, as far as the rest of the world was concerned - which in turn also suffered [as it still does to much degree] the illusion that socialistic premises are valid ones, only needing better methods of implimentation....  

Post 13

Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Where does the 7.5 mil killed come from? The war itself resulted in about 2 million killed and the Cambodian communists killed 2-3 million in Cambodia, but your post implies 7.5 million additional.

--Brant


Post 14

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 7:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Where does the 7.5 mil killed come from? The war itself resulted in about 2 million killed and the Cambodian communists killed 2-3 million in Cambodia, but your post implies 7.5 million additional
2.5 million killed internally in vietnam from land reforms, murder quotas etc.  (Vietnam's population is currently around 80 million)
1.5 million killed in Laos and Cambodia from Vietnamese aggression
.5 million drowned at see of the 1.5 million who fled.
3 million killed in Cambodia by the Khmere Rouge, which the vietnamese gov armed and helped bring to power (and subsequently removed later) 

Michael

(Edited by Michael F Dickey on 4/20, 7:18am)


Post 15

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thank you for the breakdown. What are your references?

--Brant


Post to this thread


User ID Password or create a free account.