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Post 0

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 12:19amSanction this postReply
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This is one time when that overused & usually pretentious bromide from academia, "insightful," is meaningful. Bravo, Joe! Sanctioned!

Linz

Post 1

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 3:23amSanction this postReply
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Great article Joe.

"He can point to the most altruistic person you two know and show that he's constantly acting for himself and not others. The counterargument being made is that nobody practices it consistently. "

Interesting. I just posted a theory on SOLO science that evolution is wiping altruists out - it just hasn't finished the job yet.

However, the argument that no one is really an altruist is quite absurd. It is based on the idea that anything anyone does freely is a conscious decision - and all conscious decisions are based on "self" - ish desires.

If altruism is to be negated this way (which most people don't consistently do) - the only way to practice the ideal of "altruism" would be to become a non-volitional supernaturally animated puppet.  It would not even be inconsistent, but entirely impossible.


Post 2

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 6:04amSanction this postReply
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As usual from Joe, a comprehensive article spilling over with clear, practical truth!

It might be added that some bad philosophizing can't even maintain consistency from one sentence to the next--or indeed within the same sentence.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 3/12, 6:09am)


Post 3

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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You’ve packed many good points – interrelated points – in a terse article. I was thinking about this topic recently. I often notice many people who manage, despite incorrect conscious principles, to function fairly decently. Often by osmosis they mimic behavior patterns of others that they sense is beneficial. But what a handicap! As you say, when they need to rely on conscious principles they are out of luck. And to the extent they do function they are parasitically dependent on those that do think.

 

What I often worry about even more is the cognitive damage that people do when they try to twist their logic to justify a pro-life practice that is at odds with a cherished belief – usually a religious belief. I’ve seen examples that are just frightening.

 

Thanks for the review. It's a message that is worth repeating.


Post 4

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 4:57pmSanction this postReply
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Joe: Nice article. I especially liked your point about how people will lapse into bad philosophy precisely when they need it the most.


Post 5

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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A very fine article, Joe.

Another disastrous effect of determinism is the horrific "victim" view of criminals that pervades our culture. I just heard a vivid example of your point that irrational ideas can't be practiced consistently: a woman who is a confirmed determinist was saying how thrilled she is that the scum of a man who murdered an American judge has been captured and will be severely punished. It just goes to show ya'.

Jason: "I often notice many people who manage, despite incorrect conscious principles, to function fairly decently. Often by osmosis they mimic behavior patterns of others that they sense is beneficial." You and I have been noticing the same thing. And it also occurs in people with incorrect subconscious principles, however valid their conscious ideas may be. Their repressed ideas make them unable to know how to function, so they must observe others in order to know what to do. They are helpless, and they know it, but they don't know why.

Barbara

Post 6

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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Majesty - it seems I am receiving your e-mail but you're not receiving mine. I've asked James to phone you with a suggestion. I'll also send a SOLO mail re the matter at hand.

Linz

Post 7

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Great, clear article as always. I want to add what I perceive to be a similar effect of the inconsistent philosophy of altruism: I think it indirectly leads to criminality, to irrational selfishness in certain people. If, by already considering your own interests, you're immoral -- why not go all the way? If you're depraved anyway, might as well be depraved and enjoy it.

I suspect this is exactly the type of rationalization many criminals use. It is especially encouraged by the popular equivalency of money-making and stealing, which so visibly and constantly puts businessmen and crooks under the same light.

Alec   


Post 8

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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The deepest premises of a person do, indeed, explode in full bloom in a moment of crisis.  I can't stand when people panic (or worse, pray), when a solution is of utmost importance and urgency.

Thank you, Joe, for a treatise on why one must think things all the way through, and know the very deepest reasons involved.  Such a level of conscious thought and effort makes one more self-aware, self-reliant, and self-assured.  What more could one ask for in a crisis?   


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 10:31pmSanction this postReply
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Bravo again Joe.

You wrote:

"The first thing to note is that these bad philosophies cannot be practiced consistently.  You can be a dedicated altruist and live very long.  You can't be a committed rationalist, believing deduction is the only means of knowledge, because you'd have no knowledge about the real world.  You can't be a dedicated empiricist, believing that theory and abstractions are useless, because facts without integration would appear random and chaotic.  You can't be a consistent determinist, believing that choice is an illusion, or you'd sit passively while death slowly took you." [my emphasis]

That's just about as concise as it gets on cutting to the bone. But then you go further. You deal with the payoffs of each bad philosophy. Like Jack said, "Let's cut 'em up and take a look see."

Brilliant. This article will bear several readings by me. I want this one embedded in my brain cells.

The way you're going, man, you're becoming a hard act for you yourself to follow.

Michael


Post 10

Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 11:30pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Enjoyed your article thoroughly.

You think there is a claim to be made that "altruists" view their philosophy different from how "rational egoists" view theirs? Might the fact that many altruists haven't identified an explicit philosophy partly explain why they do not practice it so consistently?

Garin


Post 11

Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I can't read your article. When I click on the link, I just get a 404 error:
Not Found

The requested URL /Articles/Rowlands/Bad_Philosophy_Is_Inconsistent.shtml was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


Post 12

Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Same here.

Post 13

Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara: "… And it also occurs in people with incorrect subconscious principles, however valid their conscious ideas may be. Their repressed ideas make them unable to know how to function, so they must observe others in order to know what to do. They are helpless, and they know it, but they don't know why."

 

That's a powerful observation especially relevant to many Objectivists, in my opinion. That’s worth an article or a book!

 


Post 14

Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the comments everyone.  I'll respond soon.  Those of you who couldn't access the article should be able to now, I hope.

Post 15

Monday, March 14, 2005 - 12:50amSanction this postReply
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Now for the specific replies.

Thanks Lindsay.  Means a lot coming from you.

Marcus, when I was in 5th grade, I was taught that all of our actions are "selfish" because we do them for some reason for ourselves, even if it's just to feel good about ourselves.  It does miss the whole distinction.

Rodney, you're right about some philosophies being that inconsistent.  I wonder if it's worth categorizing those as being argumentatively inconsistent vs. the behaviorally inconsistent that I'm talking about.

Jason, I'm not sure your osmosis argument is widely applicable.  I'm sure in some cases it is, but I think of it more as not having an explicit understanding of why they're doing it.  For instance, someone who knows nothing about ethics (except the typical altruistic bromides) may still act in ways they think will make them happy.  They're not just mimicking behavior, they're figuring it out for themselves.  They're just not identifying how they figure it out.  By not explicitly identifying their process, they don't have to confront the contradiction with their supposed beliefs.

Thanks Shayne.  I thought that was a particularly important point too.

Thanks Barbara.  Your example sounds about right as far as inconsistency.  Even those who don't want to acknowledge evil make exceptions when it's too obvious.

Alec, I'm not sure how common your depraved example appears, but you're right about the principle.  If you're given a philosophical choice (usually in the form of a false dichotomy), people often plunge one way in order to avoid the other.  I mentioned this in my Sacred Sex article.  If your choice is between abstinence and hedonism, let's all jump on board the hedonist boat!  "If that's morality, I don't want anything to do with it!".

As far as the mentality of criminals, I'm not an expert.

Jennifer, thanks for the comment.  It's a shame that a crisis is exactly the time when you don't have time to screw around with working out philosophical issues, and yet that's when the problem becomes obvious.

Michael, thanks for the praise, and I'm glad you found it useful.  Fortunately, I'm not really competing with myself to outdo my older articles, or I might get a little more nervous when writing them.  But I still have a few ideas worth writing about.

Garin, glad you liked it.  I think your right that altruists haven't identified their philosophy in an explicit form, at least in some respect.  I think they do in the sense that they have a set of moral rules to follow, and they think of morality as being altruism.  So when they're thinking about morality, that's what comes to mind.  That means it's their explicit philosophical views, as opposed to whatever they actual practice and believe.  But certainly they don't think about morality in terms of standard of value, it's relationship to life, the need for it, etc.  Objectivists usually put more thought into what morality means. 


Post 16

Monday, March 14, 2005 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
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Joe, you're right, my comment was off-topic. Just want to assure you I did understand your points and my praise still applies!

Post 17

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
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Hi Joe,

Who can quarrel?  This is an excellent assessment of how various individuals approach life and the potential pitfalls.

I question it in only one respect.  You wrote:

You can't be a dedicated altruist and live very long.  You can't be a committed rationalist, believing deduction is the only means of knowledge, because you'd have no knowledge about the real world.  You can't be a dedicated empiricist, believing that theory and abstractions are useless, because facts without integration would appear random and chaotic.  You can't be a consistent determinist, believing that choice is an illusion, or you'd sit passively while death slowly took you.  The big point here is that inconsistency is not optional.  It's a necessary by-product of an impracticable philosophy.


This may be true in isolation, on some deserted island, but within society it doesn't hold true.  Another, for whatever reason or motive can pick up the slack.  History is repleat with mystics like St Francis of Assisi or the Buddha, dictators like Lenin or Stalin, and 'divine right' potentates who survived quite nicely. 



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