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Post 40

Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 12:31amSanction this postReply
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Danny, can you explain how you made the monumental leap from Marcus' article to this statement?

I don't see why YOU have to be so enviously resentful of those who would be born with natural abilities outside of the realms of technological inventiveness. 

Jennifer,

I didn't make it.  You have hallucinated the entire thing.  Trust me.



Post 41

Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 6:51amSanction this postReply
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I am not envious of those "who would be born with natural abilities outside of the realms of technological inventiveness." 

It seems people here keep on making the same mistake of equating "abilities" with innate "potential".

If you are born with a large penis, it doesn't make you a great lover.

If you are born with long legs, it doesn't make you an olympic marathon athlete.

If you are born with a big brain, it doesn't make you a genius.

These things have to learned or trained for through the use of reason.
Living is NOT an automatic process.

You can't function without your mind, try as you might!


Post 42

Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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Or maybe, Marcus... Mr. Incredible and his kind, never HAVE to develop their technological abilities, because they have easier avenues to power.  Such as being able to pick up trees and what-not.

I was actually dancing around that point, because I didn't want to point out such a brutally frank possibility and risk depressing anybody.

But yes; maybe we only develop "un-natural" abilities such as inventiveness because we don't have the effortlessly natural ones to fall back on.

Or are you going to reverse yourself and call inventiveness a "natural" ability, too?


Post 43

Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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Danny,

I'm not sure that the super powers are immediately available to the supers.  After all, the parents in the Incredibles had been using their powers for years, so we would expect some proficiency.  Also, wasn't there a subplot following Violet's development of her forcefield power?  It seems like she had to work at it to get it right, like with any inborn talent.


Post 44

Thursday, February 3, 2005 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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By my definition "abilities" are not "innate" in the human context, they are man-made.

 Nate,

As I pointed out before. Violet's problem with her powers was an issue of self-confidence, not development. As all young teenagers typically have a problem with self-confidence.

Confident and younger Dash never experienced any such problems.


(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 2/03, 1:03pm)


Post 45

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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I rented the movie and watched both disks.  The Incredibles offers much to anyone with a positive sense of life.  I also had the same ideological problems with the work that have been mentioned in this thread.

All art is a Rorschach inkblot test. (See http://skepdic.com/inkblot.html for gory details.)  See the discussion of The Thinker in the Art forum. 

Please be clear on this.  I am not saying that art is a litmus test.  Different people like or dislike the same work of art.  In our case, we are applying the same standards, but coming up with different results.  We might then argue the standards.  If two Objectivists cannot agree on The Thinker, then does that invalidate the Objectivist theory of aesthetics?  Does it suggest that such a theory is at best incomplete?

What you see in The Incredibles depends on what you see in yourself.  This is not a litmus test.  Like the film or not, the choice is yours.

Another interesting facet is, as I noted in the other Incredibles thread, that Newsweek reported that Objectivists liked it. 

If you read a few comics, you will find that nominal good guys can cross each other's paths and become temporary adversaries.  I wonder what a comic about SOLO would be like?


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Post 46

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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Michael writes:

If two Objectivists cannot agree on The Thinker, then does that invalidate the Objectivist theory of aesthetics? Does it suggest that such a theory is at best incomplete?


Neither.

The Objectivist aesthetics posits certain principles of artistic evaluation. But it doesn't presume to tell people how those principles must apply to each case, or that one "should" or "should not" respond to certain works in a certain way. Why? Because the principles of evaluation are not intrinsic (metaphysical), nor are they subjective (arbitrary); they are objective. That is, they are relational: they pertain to the unique, personal relationship between a work of art and a human who perceives it, based on principles which can be validated.

Put another way, act of evaluation (the application of value-principles) always implies the answer to the questions: Of value to whom, and for what?

In the case of "The Thinker," the work is simply a "fact of reality." It is what it is. But the interpretation and appreciation of that work depends upon (1) certain objective standards of evaluation, but also (2) the contextual situation/understanding/needs/interest of the perceiver. To some, the figure's muscular, tensed body and focused concentration is a heroic symbol of human thought. To others, the pose appears awkward and strained, the figure looks frustrated and brooding.

The standards and principles shared by both groups of observers may well be a sincere appreciation for the heroic quest for human knowledge. But their divergent evaluations of this particular work reflect their individual selectivity of focus. One group focuses on the "heroic" elements, the other on the "conflicted" elements. Factually, all the physical facts being described ARE present and being perceived. But what emphasis and interpretations people will give to each of those facts depend upon factors quite outside the field of aesthetics, and which lie within the realm of personal, contextual emotional associations and symbolism. Michael is very right in his "Rorschach inkblot test" metaphor. Everyone is looking at the same things, but "sees" something different, depending upon personal context.

It's important to stress that "personal" (or "contextual") doesn't necessarily mean "subjective." Everyone may accurately perceive the same factual elements present in a work. But aesthetic appreciation depends additionally upon interpretation -- which in turn depends upon selective focus -- which in turn depends upon what each observer considers to be personally "significant." "Significance" always involves the personal issue of: "Significant -- to whom and for what?"

This is why I find laughably futile the arguments over which artist or work is "the best." Two distinct aspects of that debate are usually conflated: the technical artistic merits, and one's own appreciation. In the former area alone, there are so many elements that it's impossible to rank their importance. Which element of a novel is most important: theme, plot, characterization or style? How do you compare a brilliant stylist who writes mundane plots against a deviously clever plot-creator who is pedestrian in his style? Etc. True, it's possible to separate the "superior" from the "inferior" on purely aesthetic grounds. But "the best" is a tall claim even on those grounds.

It is much more fruitful for us to make less ambitious claims and comparisons about artists and their works. Better for us to say which are our "favorites" and why, than to make apples-and-oranges comparisons of "superiority."

(Why some people seem to NEED to assert superiority in their aesthetic proclamations is an issue beyond the scope of this post.)


Post 47

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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Great explanation, Robert.

But their divergent evaluations of this particular work reflect their individual selectivity of focus.
Selectivity of focus - I hadn't thought of it in those terms before but it's accurate.  Thanks for clarifying this.

Jason


Post 48

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

 

That was a very interesting post you made, and got me thinking. Before I comment more fully, let me begin by saying that I was recently ‘properly’ humbled on what I thought was at least a solid foundation on my understanding of art – and one’s response to it. So this post is more of a ‘seeking guidance’ than a counter-argument. That said, I would like to challenge a couple of your points that seem to me somewhat vague.

 

You said: The standards and principles shared by both groups of observers may well be a sincere appreciation for the heroic quest for human knowledge. But their divergent evaluations of this particular work reflect their individual selectivity of focus. One group focuses on the "heroic" elements, the other on the "conflicted" elements. Factually, all the physical facts being described ARE present and being perceived. But what emphasis and interpretations people will give to each of those facts depend upon factors quite outside the field of aesthetics, and which lie within the realm of personal, contextual emotional associations and symbolism. Michael is very right in his "Rorschach inkblot test" metaphor. Everyone is looking at the same things, but "sees" something different, depending upon personal context.

 

You say, “Outside the field of aesthetics,” how so? Isn’t this like saying that a physics problem lies outside the field of mathematics? And would it not be more correct to say, not that the factors lie within the realm of the personal, emotional or symbolism; but rather lie on what the premises by which one makes their metaphysical value judgments? The examples you gave seem to be more of 'effects' not 'causes' of the differing judgements two people make on the same piece of art.

 

Later you say: “This is why I find laughably futile the arguments over which artist or work is "the best." Two distinct aspects of that debate are usually conflated: the technical artistic merits, and one's own appreciation. In the former area alone, there are so many elements that it's impossible to rank their importance.”

 

Help me understand here, are you saying that one cannot make an accurate (and universally true) qualitative distinction between two works of art because of the interpretive factor that is dependent on selective focus?  While I can see how your argument applies to ‘the thinker’, I must ask how it would apply to a work like ‘Piss Christ’ or a Jackson Pollack piece, when compared to piece by a Vermeer or Monet?

 

Lastly, you said that, “Better for us to say which are our "favorites" and why, than to make apples-and-oranges comparisons of "superiority. (Why some people seem to NEED to assert superiority in their aesthetic proclamations is an issue beyond the scope of this post.)"

 

How does one choose a ‘favorite’ without making a value judgment on the degree of the piece’s superiority or inferiority to other pieces?  The word ‘favorite’ seems to me to ‘demand’ that this is done. It’s not a question of ‘needing’ to assert superiority, but perhaps having no other choice but to do so.

 

Help me out here?

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/18, 11:01am)


Post 49

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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By the way. I was just passed this by Jeff. It is from an interview with the director of "the Incredibles" in the NY post. Why am I posting it? Because one of the original claims by Adam and others in support of this movie being "Objectivist" in theme was that the character of "Edna Mole" was inspired by Ayn Rand.

Q: "The Incredibles" generated quite a lot of ink on op-ed pages, where pundits debated the film's thesis that mediocrity is celebrated in America and that people with special abilities were being discouraged from being quite so special. Were you surprised?  

A: The idea that "The Incredibles," a mainstream animated feature, was thought of as provocative was wonderful to me. I was very gratified, though I thought some of the analysis was really kind of goofy.  

Q: Such as?  

A: Some pieces compared the viewpoint to the objectivist philosopher Ayn Rand. I thought that was silly and the writers were humorless. I was into Rand for about six months when I was 20, but you outgrow that narrow point of view. Some compromise is necessary in life.



Entire interview here:
http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/42371.htm

(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 3/18, 11:34am)


Post 50

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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Interesting interview. I actually thought The Iron Giant was pretty libertarian too.

Correct me if I'm wrong but were not the comparisons between Ayn Rand and Edna Mode based on Edna's words and actions within the movie? That still holds true irrespective of whether it was deliberate on Mr Byrd's part (which, based on the interview, I accept it wasn't).

MH


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Post 51

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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You have a short memory MH.

Adam wrote in his article,

She [Ayn Rand] could not have known that her day job would someday inspire writer and director Brad Bird to include Ayn Rand - merged with famous career costumer Edith Head - as Edna Mode, designer and inventor of ultra-high-tech action costumes for a generation of superheroes, in the 2004 animated film "The Incredibles."

David Kelley more cautiously wrote:

Scott and Klawans were among the many who cited Rand as a point of reference, and possible inspiration, for the movie's theme.


Post 52

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Haha!! Ok, point taken Marcus :-)

MH


Post 53

Friday, March 18, 2005 - 12:31pmSanction this postReply
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As far as conscious, deliberate motivation goes, I stand corrected. On the other hand, artists are seldom fully aware of the internals of their own creative process. Perhaps Ayn Rand's influence has become so implicit that it is no longer always noticed or acknowledged.

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