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Post 60

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I was trying to describe a scenario where it might be necessary to physically stop a friend (given implied consent) from harming himself accidentally. Perhaps the stove scenario is inappropriate.

Consider a friend about to step into the path of a car while looking the wrong way; I'd simply grab him and explain later, for fear of a verbal warning being ambiguous or untimely. I don't think this is a violation of his rights, as implied consent applies (assuming he hasn't asked me not to do such things in the past).

I know *I'd* want someone to stop me in that case.

Yours,
Duncan

Post 61

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:19pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

I repeat: “I’m anticipating little pleasure in debating issues with people who think that some intelligence is a good enough substitute for knowledge.”

I bought Between Parent & Child today. From my initial skimming, this will be a very helpful book. Much of Ginott’s method has already found its way into the popular child and parenting publications, a good sign.

Gotta go now. My toddler, whose vocabulary should consist of three words just said, “No, Daddy. No more work. Come here and play ABCDs. That dog tried to eat my bread. Is Gammy on the airplane, or at home?”

Jon


Post 62

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:24pmSanction this postReply
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Hong, it's so nice to see you at last. And you're not half-baked, you're fully baked.

Barbara

Post 63

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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Hong is a hottie. If I wasn’t this ugly…


Post 64

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,
you're not half-baked, you're fully baked.

*gasp* How did you know about my dark peasant's tan?!

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/19, 6:43am)


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Post 65

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 8:59pmSanction this postReply
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I said earlier that this was the craziest discussion ever on Solo. Now I'll say why.

For centuries, it was considered perfectly acceptable -- even mandatory -- that men beat their wives in order to bring order and sanity to their lives. Presumably, the wives were not capable of the rationality required to guide their own lives. Later, it came to be accepted in the civilized world that savage beatings were perhaps not the best idea, but that some pain and fear could be inflicted when necessary. Then, finally, it came to be accepted that hitting or slapping women was not right under any circumstances. Lo and behold! -- it appeared that there were other ways to deal with disagreements.

Similarly, for centuries children have been beaten -- again considered necessary because they could not guide their own lives. Later, questions were raised about the legitimacy of dangerously damaging beatings, but it was understood that some pain and fear could be inflicted when necessary.

Our culture has not yet taken the next step with regard to children: the decision that pain and fear should be excluded from the realm of parenting -- that they are not the means by which children learn, grow, trust, and flourish. What amazes me is that Objectivists and libertarians are fighting over this issue. I would have expected that they would be among the first to outlaw such atrocities -- and nothing that I have read in this thread explains why they are not. To say a slap won't damage a child is no more valid than saying it won;'t damage your wife. In both cases, it will, though not physically; in both cases, it will damage your relationship. And yes, I know that a child may have to be restrained from certain dangerous actions; but so might your wife is she is unknowingly stepping too close to a precipice. (Those who favor one form or another of hitting might consider how they would feel and how they would react if they discovered someone else hitting their child.)

It seems as if -- and I am not casting stones, only trying to understand -- that because spanking is so prevalent today, because its effects are not necessarily immediately evident, because it is a quicker and easier way to deal with a child, that people hang on to it as if something that "everyone does" is therefore okay. But surely there's something very wrong with saying that force should be excluded from human relationships -- but only when the relationships are among adults. Lo and behold! -- there are other ways to deal with disagreements with one's children.

Barbara

Post 66

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 9:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,
Meet me at Parenting sub-forum....Hope you know the way...


Post 67

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 9:46pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, I don’t know, Hong. I’m married, it’s 10:44 pm…
OK! I’ll try to find it!


Post 68

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 9:51pmSanction this postReply
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You know, Jon, if you came out with an official guide to parenting, it would be a hit in French-speaking countries.

(I'm referring to your last name. And nevermind the pun.)


Post 69

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 9:58pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

Women can be rational. Absolutely. But sometimes the little snots are not. They need to be slapped down, AS A LAST RESORT, when they are “flowing”, for example. Nine times out of ten the woman will thank you for it. They cry, but it’s a five second sting. And they cry because they know that it was necessary. It hurts the hitter, too, you know. One day, they will not be flowing anymore, they will be perfectly fine and describe to you that it made them strong.

Jon


Post 70

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:58pmSanction this postReply
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Hong said: I think the #1 SOLO mom has to go to Tenya McCambell - she has 5 kids and she herself is a career lawyer!


Hong,

Thank you for the mention. I do want to clarify that while daughter #5 is small (she's now 1 year old) I'm taking a break from lawyering to be a full-time mom. It seems the older I get, the less I trust other people with my young ones.

Although I appreciate the thought, quantity is not quality. I may have a lot of kids, but it's given me the opportunity to make a lot of mistakes. I would have to respectfully decline the title of #1 SOLO mom.

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Post 71

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:22pmSanction this postReply
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A few people here have tried to compare parents using force on their children to husbands using force on their wives. Such a comparison doesn't seem valid to me.
It is the parents' job to teach their children and prepare them for life in this world. Sometimes, particularly when the children are small and pre-rational, this requires the use of force. At the least, force may be necessary to protect the child or to protect others or property from the child. (they can be very destructive if you let them)
It is not a husband's job to teach his wife. I realize that at times in the past (and in some cultures even now) it was accepted as a husband's job to teach his wife various lessons. But since we here at SOLO do not believe this is the case (I hope), I don't see how the comparison is useful.
Unless we believe there may come a time in the future when we discover that children do not need such instruction.

Post 72

Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:38pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Your package-dealing is NOT flip-flopping on my part. I can conceive of situations in which some kind of force - picking up and holding a child who does not wish to be picked up and held, for example, and in extreme situations even putting the child in a locked room by force - is a justified last resort. On the other hand, deliberate infliction of pain that is not a natural consequence of the child's own actions, is unavoidably counterproductive to the goal of optimizing the child's attainment of fully human personhood. The most frequent cause of adult criminality, is that the child learns to interpret deliberate infliction of pain on others as normal adult behavior, rather than as an abomination to be avoided when possible.

If you wish, I can post data comparing the incidence of adult criminality and juvenile delinquency in cultures that do not deliberately inflict pain on children, and those that do. But your position seems to be, that you don't wish to be bothered with facts.

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Post 73

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 1:37amSanction this postReply
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I confess I'm confused, though not in the way some of you might wish to believe!

First, Majesty said this:

"This is the craziest discussion I have ever seen on Solo -- and we all know some of them have been pretty crazy. Linz, no one has said that you should go to jail for swatting your child."

This notwithstanding the fact that the whole discussion was spurred by a new law in Whining Pom-land whereby someone who "swats" his child can go to jail for five years if the swats leave a mark. That law was defended in this discussion by the leader of SOLO-Law, who also said that if David Bertelsen lived under such a law he might well find the police "getting involved" in Mr Bertelsen's brutal three-tap thrashing of his son. (For the benefit of the precious PCs, the last remark was a parody of them.)

*That* was confusing, but I assumed Majesty had missed the origins & early parts of the discussion.

What was more confusing was the subsequent back-pedalling & flip-flops by the leader of SOLO Law. The boy should be a lawyer.

Now, to add to the confusion, Majesty says this:

"What amazes me is that Objectivists and libertarians are fighting over this issue. I would have expected that they would be among the first to outlaw such atrocities."

Ah, so we are talking about the outlawing of swatting after all, only not the jailingof the swatters? Are the smack-banners simply saying that transgressors should be punished but not sent to jail? Well then, what sort of penalty do they deem appropriate?

Let them come clean. No sophistry & verbal gymnastics. Do they support the new law in Britain—the source of this discussion—imposing a possible jail term of up to five years on someone who smacks his child & leaves a mark? A simple yes or no is all that's required.

That's the legal aspect.

Re the moral aspect, the equivocation involved in equating corporal punishment of children with assaults of adults by adults has been admirably addressed by Joe, among others, and briefly by me in my remarks about the status of rights among children. No tenable response has been forthcoming. Further, the evasiveness of the smack-banners in treating the smack-permitters as though they, the permitters, were saying that smacking was the only viable form of punishment & it should be compulsory, while they, the banners, were arguing it should be illegal, has been transparent. And the outright folly of equating what New Zealand law calls "reasonable force" exercised by parents, whose prerogative it is to raise their children as they see fit (within rational legal parameters), with "atrocities" is plain enough also.

Yes, this discussion *has* been the most crazy ever on SOLO. But the craziness did not emanate from the opponents of the new law.

Linz

PS - I was going to make a joke about what a dire day it was when men were no longer permitted to slap their women, as evidenced by this discussion, but I think someone beat (oops) me to it, & it would be taken seriously by the PC po-faces. So I'll confine myself to observing what a calamity it was when women were allowed out of the kitchen to vote.
(Edited by Lindsay Perigo on 1/19, 2:07am)


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Post 74

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 1:46amSanction this postReply
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"I would have expected that they would be among the first to outlaw such atrocities -- and nothing that I have read in this thread explains why they are not. To say a slap won't damage a child is no more valid than saying it won;'t damage your wife."

 

Barabara,

 

Here you go equating Adults with Children. I suppose you think society will also move in the direction that a Child should be held accountable for their actions to the same extent as an adult? It seems you want your cake and to eat it. You want Children to have the same rights as Adults, but for them not to be responsible for their actions. Unless of course you favour the model whereby children are hauled in front of courts for damaging property or hitting another child? (Which most people including yourself I hope would think is ridiculous). Do the wives get some special exception from the law when they use violence or damage property or are they not held to account by the law? Does the husband have the responsibility to look after his wife? Must he make sure she is not left at home alone in case she may injure herself?

 

When has it ever been legal to beat your wife? It could well be that courts have not enforced the law adequately in the past, but that would be another matter.

 

When this anti-smacking law was passed, politicians over here kept harping on about how the present law was 150 years old. As if that was a bad thing - it must be really outdated they said. Well, the laws against murder and theft are hundreds of years old. Does that make them outdated?

 

The original law stated that Parents may use "reasonable" chastisement. This sort of framing obviously does allow for cultural changes of what would be considered "reasonable". However, according to you, I guess the lawmakers of 150 years old worded this piece of legislation hoping that children would still be flogged, no?

 

And with that law in place there already had been a cultural shift. However, politicians acted as if the word "reasonable" was allowing children at the moment to be beaten with parents going unpunished. However, never did they once actually illustrate this with an example. And from cases I read in the newspaper courts were not all lenient towards parents that were beating their children. But now we have a law against smacking in this country that makes it a crime if it causes "scratch marks" or "reddening of the skin".

 

Great!!! Next time that your child falls down and scratches his leg, expect that when someone accuses you are doing it of being hauled through the courts. I am sure both parent and child will find this a growing experience, rather than the traumatic nightmare it actually is.

 

Let's get big brother into our houses, watching us to make sure we do not break the law and spank our kids. Why not?


I am sure anti-spanking Objectivists will like that one. After all, it is just a cultural change in attitude.








Post 75

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 2:16amSanction this postReply
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Linz: "Do they support the new law in Britain—the source of this discussion—imposing a possible jail term of up to five years on someone who smacks his child & leaves a mark? A simple yes or no is all that's required".

No. I do not support the law, because, as presented here, it is impossibly vague. I might, for instance, have to restrain a child who's about to walk into traffic, and leave a bruise; that is scarcely child abuse. Child abuse needs to be defined very carefully and objectively before one can legitimately make laws.

Linz: "So I'll confine myself to observing what a calamity it was when women were allowed out of the kitchen to vote."

What makes it okay is that men tend to be better cooks, so it's they who should be in the kitchen while women go out to conquer the world.

Marcus:" You want Children to have the same rights as Adults, but for them not to be responsible for their actions."

Of course children cannot have all the same rights as adults. What I want is very simple: that the deliberate infliction of pain and fear on children should end, and that we begin to recognize that children learn precisely as adults do: by understanding. Pain and fear are not sources of understanding.

When you write: "Let's get big brother into our houses, watching us to make sure we do not break the law and spank our kids. Why not? " -- you;'re setting up a straw man. This is scarcely what I'm suggesting.

I can understand why some people are religious, I can understand why they are altruists or socialists -- but I'm damned if I can understand why they think it's reasonable to hit a child.

Barbara





Post 76

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 2:30amSanction this postReply
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Majesty - in response to Marcus you say:

When you write: "Let's get big brother into our houses, watching us to make sure we do not break the law and spank our kids. Why not? " -- you;'re setting up a straw man. This is scarcely what I'm suggesting.

So, in the interests of clarity, which has been conspicuously lacking in the contributions of the smack-banners: Exactly what *are* you suggesting? What law do you want, backed up by what penalties? And how will it notinvolve letting Big Brother into our houses?


Linz



Post 77

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 3:41amSanction this postReply
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"The boy" wishes to apologise for any confusion caused to anyone by my being willing to reconsider my position, or by my acceptance that someone like David using a relatively very gentle smack (I believe he said he didn't leave a mark, right?) as a last resort is, at least from a legal perspective, of a wholly different order to the practice I'm taking issue with. Ironically, this is something that is now apparently lost on some of my critics, who accuse me of wiggling for accepting that distinction.

I regret that much of this discussion has been preoccupied by my early comments in the original thread, rather than debating the real issues at stake, and for that I offer my apologies to the others here arguing against the use of corporal punishment.

As to Lindsay's lawyer quip, all being well it is now but a matter of months before I do become a lawyer. At which point I imagine I will end up defending someone accused of breaking this new law :-)

Edited to add - SOLO Law is rather quiet at the moment, so anyone up for discussing legalish stuff feel free to drop by :-)

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 1/19, 3:49am)


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Post 78

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 3:59amSanction this postReply
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All this thread has done for me is remind me how one takes things for granted.

Nowadays I'm hopeless to find someone who is willing to spank me (and who is not also Lindsay).


Post 79

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 4:06amSanction this postReply
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"I'm damned if I can understand why they think it's reasonable to hit a child."

 

Barbara,

 

Why is it reasonable to discipline a child? To correct a child?  To restrain a child? To teach a child? To have any physical or emotional contact with a child?

 

Why chastise or punish a child at all?

 

Answer the above questions and maybe you will begin to understand.

(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 1/19, 4:09am)


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