About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Post 20

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 7:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Well, Eric - let me know when you open the shop - have some erotic renderings am sure will help bring in the crowd, and we can both make money :) .


Post 21

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jamie,

I've been to Missoula once, and I thought it was nice little town.  While there are certainly some annoying liberals in small college towns, there are also some upsides, such as the disproportionate amount of hot young women in their early twenties.  I recall a nice little sandwich shop on or near the main drag, sort of a hippie owned joint, but great food...the mountains and the trout fishing nearby are also a plus...


Post 22

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Pete:
Oh, far be it from me to completely trash my little hometown! It is dynamic and fun, filled with arts and music and yes, those hot women of whom you speak! The sandwich shop you're thinking of ... is it the Raven? That's a nice little hipster joint. Or maybe you're thinking of The Break Espresso. I think that's what really endears Missoula to me: It's got a wonderful spirit of individualism. Only that individualism comes with a "looking down the nose" mentality toward the people, places and institutions that remotely reek of conformity. Hence the hostility to Wal-Mart and Starbucks here.

Post 23

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Folks around here hate Walmart too but they hate it for strange reasons.  People here in Buffalo seem to not like anything to occur that might be helpful.  Walmart wanted to move one of their stores down a street into a larger space where they would expand their store size and number of employees.  The site they wanted to use was an abandoned mall.  There are literaly NO stores within a mile of the site besides the Walmart that wanted to move.  And the city put the decision to a vote and passed a resolution that stopped Box stores from being set up or moved within the city.  WHY?  well as best I have seen the union of a local supermarket paid close to 50,000 to print up and stir up anti-walmart sentiment in the people in the area.  But the odd thing is that Walmart and this supermarket that the union workers work for are not competing in the same market.  The Walmarts around here don't sell food like a supermarket.  When questioned the union folks said that they were against walmart because they don't have unionized employment! 

So essentialy they are against poor people in an economicly depressed city getting any job unless its a union job.

I love this city, its Grrrreaat!

~E.


Post 24

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Eric,
No doubt there is some passion/irrational behaviour behind the people not seeing that Walmart may be a good choice for your community.  But, it's important not to see your special case as a representative example of all the Walmart vs community resistance cases in America and the World.

Further, maybe they are protesting against non-Union labor in your town because they feel that their relatives in some other town are being oppressed by Walmart's anti-union position, they are fighting for those people's rights. 

I see Unions and the principle of collective bargaining as similar to a company getting bigger and bigger and using it's purchasing power to offer lower prices.  Both are corruptable, neither is inherently 'wrong'.

In the case of Walmart, many people get mad at Walmart for very real reasons, here's one:  when Walmart pays their average employee a dirt cheap salary with no bennefits, guess who picks up the tab for the healthcare and other needs?  The government (i.e.You and me, via our taxes). 

I disturbing number of Walmart employees depend on the government (Medicaid) for their health care.  In the end the low low price we pay their is not so low low because our taxes are higher higher. 

I say let the individual worker at Walmart stand up for what is best for him and his interests, and let them band together to increase their power. 


Post 25

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
TF (TruthFan),

I have no problem with unions.  Perhaps I didn't explain the implications of what occured in enough detail.  In fact after reading my post I see I focused on the wrong issue entirely.  I am not pleased that the union stopped walmart from moving down the street not because they are a union but because they used the government as a tool to infringe upon the property rights of an individual.

The property rights of the company that owned the empty mall were infringed upon by the union who ginned up opposition to the point that they got a resolution passed by the town banning the set up and building of a box store.  There are a number of powers that current government has that are highly immoral, the power to infringe upon someones property rights for the public good is one of them. 

In any case where a union or a company uses the government to accomplish their ends by infringeing upon the rights of any individual is a case I must strongly disagree with.  I should have been more detailed when I spoke about the government resolution.  It is an infringement of property rights because the government is basicly dictating who you can sell your property to.

I agree with you that there are benefits to collective bargaining for some labor/ company relations.  BUT the means must always justify the ends.  You cannot infringe upon the property rights of another just because you desire higher wages.  Therefore, it is highly immoral to use your political clout as a union to get legislation passed that accomplishes your ends in that way.  

On the issue of Walmart employees using government benefits, the same stance applies.  The wrong done there is that we are being stolen from to provide for people who can't afford benefits on their own.  The government cannot morally mandate that Walmart pay their employees more to decrease the number of government dependents.  We can however morally demand that we not be the unwilling patrons of people who don't care to negotiate their own wages.

So in the end I agree, let the Walmart employees do as they will but they certainly cannnot do it by infringeing upon the rights of others.

~E.

P.S.   My last statement from my first post on this matter still stands.  The mettleing union through the use of their government club have hurt not only the people involved in the sale of the property but also the people in that area who might have benefited even from such low wage jobs.  Their actions were wrong, moraly speaking, even if they were not illegal.

(Edited by Eric J. Tower on 12/29, 4:08pm)


Post 26

Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 2:09pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hey folks,

I've been out of town, so I missed this thread until today. As a Starbucks employee for 16 months or so (until two weeks ago) I had the privilege of being immersed in the coffee house atmosphere. Here are some thoughts.

On Starbucks:
It is a great company to work for offering benefits, stock, and management opportunities. I think it offers great things to its customers too. For Eric, I think your potential for differentiation will lie in offering a unique drink selection and some extra perks for the lounge (web access, book groups, live music have all worked before). Location is a HUGE factor.

On "coffee houses":
I love the fact that the coffee house is a place of lounging geared toward productivity. It's a place for discussion, creativity, study with the emphasis on being caffeinated instead of drunk. I prefer coffee shops to bars for this reason.

On Fair Trade and the Left:
I faced customers at Starbucks everyday who cried over our "abuse" of 3rd world coffee growers and independent coffee shops. Overproduction has decimated the price of coffee over the last 10 years and as a result growers face narrow margins (if any). The leftists consistently blame Starbucks for being able to make a profit while it pays growers just pennies for the beans.

Our popular local grocery store here in Sacramento, the Natural Foods Coop, recently had a display in their cafe promoting "fair trade" coffee. The display prominently featured pictures of the poverty stricken growers hand picking coffee beans next to a historical price chart of coffee. The caption next to former named the farmers in the picture by name and expounded on their plight (lack of medical care, education, sanitation, etc). The caption next to the other picture said that the entire price decline in coffee beans was a result of the "speculators" at the New York Mercantile Exchange making a huge profit at the expense of Pablo the farmer. As a former commodities trader at the Chicago Board of Trade, I found this blatant misrepresentation offensive. Unfortunately it is accepted as fact by many, many people. I would love to pursue this topic of coffee prices in relation to Starbucks, Fair Trade, and farmers if there is interest.

Dave

Post 27

Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 9:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hey Dave Good to see you around,

 I would love to pursue this topic of coffee prices in relation to Starbucks, Fair Trade, and farmers if there is interest.



Go ahead I am listening.  I am interested in learning anything I can on the subject.  Also can you recommend any good books that talk about the coffee trade?

Thanks,

~E.


Post 28

Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 9:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There is an interest.

Jon

Post 29

Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Eric and Jon, this is an interesting tangent on coffee houses and the coffee business, but hardly a defining or essential segment of it. Really it is more tabloid in flavor since I enjoy watching the collectivist's attempts to undermine free markets. I hope it would be entertaining (or frightening) to others too.

At Starbucks there are strict coffee purchasing guidelines which allow them to buy only the highest quality beans. On average Starbucks paid $1.20/lb in 2003 while the world market price was something around $.60-$.70/lb. The Fair Trade brand marxist cooperatives receive a minimum of $1.26/lb for their beans, but they aren't subjected to the same scrutiny in quality that Starbucks requires.

Higher prices and lower quality made Fair Trade beans a poor candidate for mass production in the Starbucks brand. Limited offerings were targeted for select markets to meet demand for the product. Enter the activist group Global Exchange. The group launched a campaign lead by consumers to force Starbucks to offer Fair Trade once a week as the featured in-store brew. This campaign included a large scale fax/email attack directed at corporate headquarters, as well as media driven smear campaign. Protests were held and flyers distributed. One of the flyers bemoaned the 34% increase in Starbucks profit while bean prices declined dramatically. Unfortunately, the flyer fails to note that Starbucks opened hundreds of stores during that time period and this was the source of profits, not the price fluctuation of wholesale beans.

Anyway, the activists ended up forcing the corporation to bow to them, and now Starbucks "voluntarily" brews a statistically gigantic amount of Fair Trade beans in relation to the sales volume of its whole bean variety. The group Global Exchange used coercion to pursue its destructive ends. It gives me the willies.

The economics surrounding coffee are very easy. Lots of people drink coffee. In the tropics, lots of people grow coffee. Right now, too much coffee is grown and it is dirt cheap. It might not be profitable for everyone choosing to grow coffee. Fair Trade is an attempt to circumvent this eventuality via tribalism. Since I have decided to live for my own sake, I wouldn't expect someone to give me an unearned premium on a readily available product. The obvious moral failure of the Fair Trade brand is only surpassed by that of its proponents. They are religious zealots for the most part, demanding Starbucks destroy itself for daring to succeed while others suffer (anywhere, for any reason).


Dave


(Edited by Dave Voigt on 1/01, 5:19pm)


Post 30

Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dave,

I have a book here that I got when I was a Wacko-Anti-Globalizationist.   I took a course on globalization in the world, taught by a card carrying member of the communist party.  Anyways  The name of the book is "No-Nonsense Guide to Fair Trade" By David Ransom.

Here is a few fun quotes to back up what you were saying about the Fair Traders being Marxists.

If we were to measure the value of something by the amount of human care and attention it receives, then by far the greatest value of the coffee bean would reside with the coffee farmer, whose working life is taken up with growing, picking, washing, drying and dispatching the thing....
Now its been a while but is this not Marxist value theory?

I am just glad that we don't value human life in the manner that they decided gives something value above.  I don't think I would be worth as much as a 20 year bottle of Scotch.

I will give this 20 page section a quick read and get back to you tommarow.... it will be ripe I am sure.

Regards,

~E.


Post 31

Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Eric

I see the Ransom title all the time in the book store I work at! I haven't read it cover to cover, but I read snippets from time to time when I want to get riled up. You hit the nail on the head with Marx's value theory there. I was just on Equal Exchange's website where I learned:

"Equal Exchange’s partners are small farmer co-ops that are governed by the farmers themselves. They are dedicated to the equitable distribution of income and the provision of other services, such as healthcare and education."

And also:

"A fair price includes a guaranteed minimum price regardless of how low the commodity market falls. This ensures farmers a living wage even when coffee market prices are too low to maintain acceptable living standards."

Yes, that's right. A GUARANTEED "living" wage. WOW!!! If only every industry would adopt such measures, the world would be rid of poverty instantly!

Sorry about your anti-globalization phase. We all have our skeletons I suppose. Before reading the Fountainhead I lied all the time to escape my responsibilities.

Dave

Post 32

Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
double deleted
(Edited by Dave Voigt on 1/01, 8:07pm)


Post 33

Saturday, January 1, 2005 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Thanks, Dave.

What you’ve said sounds about like what I thought Fair Trade was all about. Someone (Starbucks) needs more of something (beans) than anyone else and needs the best. (Obvious required course is to seek commitments directly from producers, cut out the middleman, pay the premium, and you are off and running.) The customer is attracted to the notion of treating Juan extra-nice, so tell said customer that your product is little-guy friendly and necessarily priced accordingly, and sell to the naïve saps, and sell, and sell. I suspect some ingenious U.S. farmers are getting rich doing something similar with “organics”.

Jon


Post 34

Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 11:11amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jon,

Why its funny you should bring up organic farmers.  Some of them are actually very keen capitalist folks.  In New York State there is a state wide state run marketing program which all milk producers have to pay into because the state has declaired milk to be a homogenous product and they don't want milk producers competeing.  Well a small Organic milk farm is fighting the state impossed marketing fee on the grounds that their product is actualy not homogenous, siteing all the organic farming practices compared to normal farming practices.    They lost the suit and still have to pay though.

I of course have to side with the Organic Milk farmer on this one.   But what do you guys think?  What do you guys think about milk being declaired a homogenous product and then the state forceing them to collectively market their product.   I am not really sure that any product is homogenous especialy if multiple producers are involved, quality of milk, quality of the cow, quality, quality...etc.

That seems to be exactly what the Fair Traders are looking to do too.  If all products are homogenous then they can eliminate price competition but as Dave pointed out above, this can only be done by sacrificeing Quality of coffee, milk or whatever.

Also Dave, I have been looking into a few things here, any idea why Starbucks is listed as a brand on the Kraft website?  More on Fair Trade when I finish the Coffee Section in Ransoms book.

Regards,

~E


Post 35

Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 4:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Eric,

Of course, forcing producers to take part in collective marketing is wrong and I support any producer’s attempts at disrupting such coercive programs.

Don’t get me wrong about the organics farmers—making profits selling whatever hippies are glad to overpay for is respectable in my book.

Jon


Post 36

Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm sorry Jon, we had a misunderstanding, I wasn't acuseing you of anything.

quick review of David Ransom's
The No-Nonsense guide to Fair Trade
(Or more accurately the all nonsense guide to marxist economics)

      In this book Ransom goes through personal story after personal story tugging at the heart stings of the reader while placing interesting guide statements like "Gregorio farmed coffee because there was no other living he could make."  and "Although they like some 20 million others in tropical countries of the South - have worked all their lives for coffee, coffee has never worked for them."  It goes on for pages and pages without direct economic proof, just emotional appeal for the little guy, then suddenly and completely out of economic context the reader is presented with an in text blub box that gives a few statistics wrapped again in guide statements.
      In one such box that shows an image of a jar of coffee cut into four sections labeled Growers 10%, Exporters 10%, Shippers and Roasters 55%, Retailers 25%, speaking about the percentage of the final price of a jar of coffee that each party recieved from the transaction.  With the following in the text meant to guide the reader to a conclusion:

      "This leaves just ten per cent for the producers themselves.  As a group, and in terms of the number of people involved, they receive far less than anyone else.
      It is, of course, to them [the farmers] that fair trade is chiefly directed.  But within current structures there is a limit on what can be achieved.  The real costs of insurance, shipping, roasting, and distributon remain much the same, if not higher for fair trade because it is relatively small-scale and therefore cannot extract the advantageous contracts given to the big corporations, or benefit equally from the economies of scale.
      That could be overcome quite simply, of course, if fair trade became bigger and more powerful in the marketplace."
(bold mine)

      The reader is left after reading about all the hard work Gregorio puts into his farm with a strong emotional attachment for the small farmers fight to grow coffee on the mountain tops.  So when we see the out of context statistic "Growers 10%" we scream out against the injustice of this market.  Enter Ransoms solution to the problem, Fair Trade must become bigger and more powerful in the marketplace!   Not entirely sinister unless we think through the economic consequences of what he proposes in his idea of Fair Trade.
      In short, Fair Trade, as defined by Ransom, is the organization of farmers into co-operatives whose goal is not to seek profit for its members but to establish socio-economic and enviromental equality and happiness.  The methods suggested for accomplishing this goal are two fold, organizing privately, which I have no problem with, and government enforced organization, tarrif raising, etc, which I firmly opposte.  This form of tribalistic statist economics is no good for anyone in the long term and government sanctioned theft is hardly moral.
      Ironicly, the "free trade" that Ransom rails against throughout his book is exactly what Ransom is advocating.  Current free trade is more a tool for Statists to exercise their power in the world, it is not true free trade, it is more accurately described as Statist Trade.  Both Ransom's Fair Trade and the current systems Statist Trade are of the same blood.  The only disagreement they have is who will be allowed to exercise the power over others, the political class of the current system or the political class of the Fair Traders.  Fair Traders are Statists trying to make themselves their own State to rule from and they guilt people into allowing it one cup at a time.



Regards,

~E.


Post 37

Monday, January 3, 2005 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dave,

Do you think that "Free Trade Coffee" could be marketed as a good product?

~E.


Post 38

Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Eric:

Just found time to read this article and found it thoroughly enjoyable and informative. Well done.


Post 39

Wednesday, January 5, 2005 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Eric

Of course I think your "free trade coffee" would be a great product, but I think it's success would be determined by your location. If your coffeehouse is located directly across the street from the Cato Institute's headquaters, you MIGHT have a chance! Everywhere else you will most likely be subject to immediate picket lines and vandalism.

I liked your summary of Ransom's empty propaganda. There is another book called "Uncommon Grounds" that has just come to mind about coffee trade from the left, but I am not sure about the content.

I think your success operating a coffeehouse is possible. If I were to give it a try, I would focus the marketing on having the HIGHEST quality coffee. Starbucks has done well in their whole bean sales by giving each type of coffee a story unique to its region of origin. For example the Arabian Mocha Sanani beans at Starbucks are grown in Yemen near the capitol Sanaa (hence Sanani) and are often dried on the tree itself or at least without any machine processing. This gives that coffee a special feel that many customers enjoy and are willing to pay for. Stuff like that would make your coffeehouse a place for "coffee lovers" and could win you a great reputation. I suppose an objectivist run coffeehouse would offer the highest quality beans to begin with, so I may be stating the obvious there.

Dave

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.