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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:52amSanction this postReply
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Very nice, Linz. (I didn't have the pleasure of reading the original one.) You make an eloquent defense of the less conscious aspects of romance and a very appropriate warning not to repress one's more physical (or even "animal") attraction.

For many folks out there, it will be a welcome argument against forcing romance when no attraction exists and against ending vibrant romances because of insignificant flaws. In particular, I think it will help many of us by providing us with a reasoned argument--as opposed to just an intuitive begrudging--as a new voice in our inner dialogues concerning romance. In the end, because of arguments like yours, many Objectivists will learn how not to repress and thus not bring psychological horrors upon themselves.

Thanks!

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 11:09amSanction this postReply
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True romance fulfils mind & body equally, to be sure. But the mind must accept, to be rational about it, that the body (the "heart," "electricity," "sexual chemistry" etc.) has reasons which, as yet at least — Rand notwithstanding — the mind knows not of.

Lindsay,

Just to clarify this, are you saying that in certain circumstances it might be appropriate to embark on a purely sexual relationship with someone we feel absolutely nothing for beyond the physical?

MH


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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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I think this is the most important article I have read in a long time. It defines for me, personally, the essence of the reason I spend my time with Solo, and why I feel such comraderie with a handful of people with whom I have never met.

Recently, when thanks to Lindsay once again I joined the Mario Lanza group on Yahoo, I was asked to pick a handle. Thinking in terms of context and essence, I came up with a famous line from "La Boheme" sung bigger and better by Lanza in hist first RCA recording session than anyone before or since. The young poet Rodolfo sings "l'anima millionaria". The inadequate English translation is "I have the soul of a millionaire", but the Italian word for soul, anima, can readily be seen to be much more connected to the animal spirit that "soul" at its richest definition implies. Reason is a tool employed by the animal "man" to enrich his existence. In my opinion, when the animal serves the tool, you have slavery.

The "millionaria" part is a statement that this animal feels worthy of being here, and, that this is indeed a glorious place to be.

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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A classic symptom of rationalism being applied in the current debate here is ethical monism – the wrongheaded and unnecessary idea that there is a single “most moral” action for any given scenario. The example Linz gives is that only a “Dagny” or a “John Galt” make moral romantic partners for an Objectivist. Ayn Rand was once asked what the “most moral” profession was. An extreme case was the fellow who died his hair red believing that Howard Roark’s hair color must certainly be the “most moral.”

 

The monistic error Firehammer makes is the idea that there must be a “most moral” sexuality. Why can’t there be options within principles, as there is with most questions in life? Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that sexuality is chosen. If a homosexual relationship can bring you happiness, why can’t this be a potential moral option?

 

Stranger still, is the “natural use of a body part” claim. Again, this points to a monistic quest to determine a singular “most moral” way of using our bodies. As with all cases of rationalism, the facts do not support it. Most, if not all, of our body parts have multiple uses, and if we are guided by some spurious “intention of nature,” we can forget clothes, automobiles, personal computers and everything else man invents for his own happiness that nature does not provide. Obviously that doesn’t mean that “anything goes,” but nor does it mean “thou shalt.”

 

(I also think that the idea that Badnarik is the “most moral” pick for president is monistic, but that argument’s been had. I just had to get that in there. J)

 
Monism indicates a desire for a rules-based philosophy. If you can figure out the “most moral” answer to something, you don’t need to think about it - you’ve got a religion. I hope that Objectivism is more than just religion without God and a bit of science and capitalism thrown into the mix. I’d like to think that Objectivism is an integrated philosophy providing moral principles and standards - and that life provides many glorious options and opportunities for happiness within those.
(Edited by Glenn Lamont on 9/14, 5:13pm)


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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 6:23pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn Lamont wrote:
Why can’t there be options within principles, as there is with most questions in life?
The nature of the human psyche demands a certain level of variety for mental health according to Dr. Murray Banks.  I would expect this to apply to one's sex life as well as all other areas of life.  Safely and effectively satisfying this need in the bedroom requires exercising a variety of morally acceptable options such as positions, etc.

To demand that everyone practice "one right way" to have sex contradicts the nature of the human mind.


Luke Setzer


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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 7:22pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Humphreys, I coincidentally made an attempt at answering your question in post number 26 at the following thread:

http://www.solohq.com/Forum/ArticleDiscussions/0781_1.shtml 

I welcome feedback from you all on this topic.


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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn,

If a homosexual relationship can bring you happiness, why can’t this be a potential moral option?
 
If cutting off an arm or leg can bring you happiness, why can't this be a potential moral option?

In fact, the morality issue only comes up if one actually understands homosexuality will not bring one happiness, or cutting of one's arm or leg will not bring one happiness, but, because the desire for the immediate gratification is so great, one chooses to engage in the activity in spite of their own best rational judgement.

The moral issue, in any case, is a private and personal one. I am more concerned with the fact that homosexuals are harming themselves. But even that is a minor issue. The major issue is the argument that human behavior is determined by mysterious desires and irresistible passions they know neither the cause, reason, or meaning of.

These are the very arguments Linz is making and they are nothing but mysticism, subjectivism, and a priorism.

Regi






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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 7:50pmSanction this postReply
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Regi, what is the inherent harm in a homosexual relationship assuming one goes about it in a rational and safe manner?

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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Regi, cutting off your arm or leg can’t bring you happiness (unless you need to in order to save your life.) You can objectively show this! The risk of bleeding to death, or surviving that, the ensuing restriction of action and mobility can only reduce or hamper the range of actions available to you. Do I really need to explain this?

 

There is no such risk with homosexuality. The gay men I know experience the same guiltless joy of being in love that straight people do. More so, in many cases.

 

Arbitrarily cutting off your arm is clearly outside the range of moral actions I’m trying to say are available. I explicitly state that it doesn’t mean “anything goes” and there you go giving an example that’s about as “anything goes” as you can get!

 

You’ve failed to show any inherent and causal damage as a result of pursuing a homosexual lifestyle. As I’ve stated previously, the health effects you cite are a result of acts that are not mandatory for homosexual relationships, nor are they (or can they be) exclusive to homosexual relationships. There is no causal relationship between the dodgy statistics you cite and homosexuality.

 

I think there is some truth to the idea that love and sexual attraction is largely mysterious. I haven’t always been able to logically identify all the reasons I’ve fallen for someone. But let’s say we could. There’s nothing stopping those reasons from being true for someone of the same sex.


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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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Glenn,
That's exactly the point. The Objectivist ethics are based on reason and self-interest, not vague assertions about what is or is not 'natural'. If homosexual acts are always contrary to the self-interest of those who practise them, then that could be objectively proven. But that can't be proven because it isn't the case. What can be proven is that unsafe sex with multiple partners is harmful, which we all knew anyway.

Various studies have shown a genetic link of between 50 and 100 percent for homosexuality, so it's clearly natural - if that even mattered.

Phil

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
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Phillip (and anyone else),

If a specific gene could be shown to make one have a homosexual orientation, and that gene could be altered prior to birth through science, would it not be moral for parents to give their children a hetero orientation in order to spare them from the guilt, denial, confusion and other difficulties that most homos seem to go through prior to coming to terms with their orientation, not to mention the bigotry that they might still encounter after that point?


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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Philip wrote, "Various studies have shown a genetic link of between 50 and 100 percent for homosexuality"
Could you cite some of these studies please Philip?
Cass


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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
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Philip wrote, "Various studies have shown a genetic link of between 50 and 100 percent for homosexuality"
Could you cite some of these studies please Philip?
Cass


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Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:53pmSanction this postReply
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I don't think it would be immoral. But maybe it would be more beneficial to make the kid bisexual, so he can make up his own mind.
I could have been more clear before. I think an in utero effect is also possible - maybe a hormonal imbalance at a specific stage of brain development. Biology is rarely simple.

Phil

PS: This is one of the sources. Studies cited are Kallman 1952, Heston & Shields 1968, Bailey & Pillard 1991.
There have been more recent studies in the 1990s by Bailey et al., including female twins. However, the results of the twin studies are debated and cannot be said to be conclusive.
(Edited by Philip Howison on 9/14, 10:36pm)


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Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 12:45amSanction this postReply
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Linz's article takes its place among the 'canon' of Objectivist literature. The article, in its original form, was extremely helpful to me when I was a bit younger and a case-in-point rationalist. I'm sure, with this new revised version, it will continue to be so for others.

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Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 4:02amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Firehammer,

To begin with, I have to say that I know some gay porn stars who would love to have been born with a name like yours. If there was any aesthetic justice in name-endowment, someone else would have gotten your name, and you would've been named "Chris Sciabarra" or something.

But that's neither here nor there. What is both here and there, however, is the absurdity of the statement you make above:

"The major issue is the argument that human behavior is determined by mysterious desires and irresistible passions they know neither the cause, reason, or meaning of. These are the very arguments Linz is making and they are nothing but mysticism, subjectivism, and a priorism."

For one thing, it is an unfair statement of the argument, which is that some human behavior is determined by mysterious desires and irresistible passions to some extent--and to a very large extent, when it comes to sexual behavior. But this misstatement is not nearly as egregious as the pure toe-tag Objectivist equivocation in the line that follows it.

You can call Lindsay's conclusion anything you want--mysticism, subjectivism, a priorism, sadomasochism, masosadism, triangular prism--to evoke bad Objectivist feelings, but that does not alter the truth one way or another. Lindsay's conclusion is based on empirical evidence, and if emprical evidence shows that there are certain spheres and contexts which are "mystical" or "subjective"--in the sense that things therein are inexplicable or subject to subjective tastes--then, well, so be it.

Unless of course you can explain to me why I have a taste for Latinas but not for Asians? Or a taste for whips but not for hand-cuffs?

You may say that homosexuality is a different category entirely, but if there is only one aspect in which our behavior is determined by mysterious desires, your absolutist stance crumbles.

As for homosex, it is an enormously complicated issue that is usually treated in a very unsophisticated and simplistic way by all sides, as is common for "identity issues" to be treated. I will not delve into it here. But I will only ask this: if someone universally suffers during heterosex, how can his choosing not to do it be a failure of his "best rational judgment"?  


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Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 5:57amSanction this postReply
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Pete wrote:
If a specific gene could be shown to make one have a homosexual orientation, and that gene could be altered prior to birth through science, would it not be moral for parents to give their children a hetero orientation in order to spare them from the guilt, denial, confusion and other difficulties that most homos seem to go through prior to coming to terms with their orientation, not to mention the bigotry that they might still encounter after that point?
This issue ties to many genetic traits, not just potentially sexual orientation.  Today's "politically correct" crowd wants to treat disabilities like total deafness as simply "different abilities" on completely equal ground with "standard abilities".  In her book The Death of Right and Wrong, Tammy Bruce documents the horrifying story of a deaf lesbian couple who purposely selected the sperm of a genetically deaf man for in vitro fertilization in hopes of spawning a genetically deaf child.  They felt "proud" of their deafness and wanted a child who could experience that world with them.

They got their wish.  The child cannot hear.

This raises many questions, such as what role, if any, government should play in preventing parents from purposely maiming children at conception.  Though I readily condemn parents who do this as immoral, I hesitate to authorize government to step into this sacred ground.  We need a complete philosophical examination of this arena to guide both civil and political policy.


Luke Setzer

(Edited by Luther Setzer on 9/15, 6:42am)


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Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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Alec,

I'm terribly busy, but I had to respond to this.

To begin with, I have to say that I know some gay porn stars who would love to have been born with a name like yours. If there was any aesthetic justice in name-endowment, someone else would have gotten your name, and you would've been named "Chris Sciabarra" or something.

Oh, yes, life is terribly unfair. It is proof, there is either no God, or he's very mean. (If you promise not to tell, Ill confess I am jealous of anyone with an Italian name, like Sciabarra. Don't tell Jennifer Iannolo, either.)

"The major issue is the argument that human behavior is determined by mysterious desires and irresistible passions they know neither the cause, reason, or meaning of. These are the very arguments Linz is making and they are nothing but mysticism, subjectivism, and a priorism."
 
I wasn't calling names and intend to show that these characterization are exactly what Linz' arguments are. If you have been around here long you know I don't argue in the way you imply. However, I am fully aware of how I made that impression and gladly accept the criticism.

Unless of course you can explain to me why I have a taste for Latinas but not for Asians? Or a taste for whips but not for hand-cuffs?
 
I cannot explain to you explicitly without knowing every detail of your history, but I can tell you the principle which will be obvious to you. All of our tastes are developed, by our experiences, our thoughts, our choices, and what we learn. We are born with the capacity to desire, but all specific desires are developed and learned. For example, before you could prefer Latinas for Asians, you first have to learn that there are such things as Latinas and Asians. You could not possibly have been born with that preference, anymore than you could be born with a preference for opera over symphonies without learning what they are.

As for homosex, it is an enormously complicated issue ...

Yes, and not the central issue, only a specimen issue.

Regi


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Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 2:42amSanction this postReply
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Regi,

I don't see how "learning that there are such things as Latinas and Asians" has anything to do with learning a desire for either one. Sure, you must know what something is before you can logically like it, but that doesn't mean that the "liking" is learned.

When I have had no major experiences with either Asians or Latinas, yet the sight of one is stimulating while the sight of another is not, how can you explain such a preference? What possible personal details could logically lead to such a preference, short of traumatic experiences, which as I say, are not involved?

Alec


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Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 2:42amSanction this postReply
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Pete,

Thanks for the response but I was really just wondering whether I'd understood what Lindsay was saying correctly :-)

MH


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