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Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 1:04amSanction this postReply
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James,

A beautiful article. Thank you.


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Post 1

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 3:32amSanction this postReply
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I was very touched by your honesty, Jim. May we hope for a sequel of sorts? :-)

Post 2

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 2:27pmSanction this postReply
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Gentlemen, thank you. I wrote this article with several things in mind. Obviously, the damage of rationalization comes through. But I find that many Objectivists need to think more seriously about the conclusions that they have come to, and how much damage can be caused if there hasn't been enough time spent checking their assumptions. This is a HUGE problem with Objectivist, right up to AR herself. Also, some I'm sure will think I meant my Grandmother gave me the gift of unconditional love, but it was the very conditions of her love that made me treasure it and helped save my life.

Derek, when you ask for a sequel, I hope you aren't referring to the attempted suicide. Some have made that suggestion.

Post 3

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 3:47pmSanction this postReply
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Jim wrote:

Derek, when you ask for a sequel, I hope you aren't referring to the attempted suicide.
Good God, no!

Your article ended with the beginning of your self-acceptance as a gay man. By "sequel," I meant the continuation of your story. Did you then start coming out to people? If so, were reactions hostile at first? The 1960s, after all, were still pretty much the Dark Ages in the US - weren't gay acts illegal in every state at that time? Many Objectivists, too, were (and still are!) living in the Dark Ages in their attitudes towards homosexuality.

I also wondered at the end if you soon found romantic happiness.  


Post 4

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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I know what you meant. Sorry. There's a little Lucifer Linz in me. too.
I think a future article on a lot of what you bring up is a good idea.
I love this place. It makes me think.
In summary, I sure did find love, after many attempts. I have been living with Sergio for two years. Love is a lot of work, but it is the most rewarding thing in life. I am by far happier and more "complete" than I have ever been. It is the reason that I am reaching out to the world more now than I ever have. I wish everything worked as well as it did 40 years ago, but hell. Things work well enough.
If I knew I had a week to live, I would listen to a little more music, eat a little more chocolate, but, basically I would do exactly what I do everyday, including having this communication with you right this moment.

Note to Cameron: I have started to read your contributions here. I look forward to many future dialogues with you. You are wiser than most 80 year-olds I know.

Post 5

Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 4:41pmSanction this postReply
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Define 'Dark Age Attitude'
I hope you  do not mean not accepting of the lifestyle, for this is an illogical and erronous mindset in and of itself to label as 'dark age' 


Post 6

Monday, August 23, 2004 - 1:21amSanction this postReply
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Sojourner wrote:
Define 'Dark Age Attitude'
I hope you  do not mean not accepting of the lifestyle, for this is an illogical and erronous mindset in and of itself to label as 'dark age'
I'm sure you understood exactly what I meant.


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Monday, August 23, 2004 - 6:29amSanction this postReply
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This article is amazing  in that it describes how love provides guidance towards living a full life.
thanks :)
Jane


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Monday, August 23, 2004 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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I would not ask you to clarify otherwise. Are you evading the question?

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Post 9

Monday, August 23, 2004 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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I do not believe Mr. McGovern is 'evading' anything. His use of the term 'Dark Age Attitude' is more than made clear by his other comments regarding homosexuality. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that his use of the term was an inference to a time in which the acts themselves were subject to criminal prosecution.

 

Your response was, "I hope you do not mean not accepting of the lifestyle, for this is an illogical and erroneous mindset in and of itself to label as 'dark age' ". It does not require a Sherlock Holmes to see the direction in which you are going.

 

Instead of playing word games and using an accusatory tone, why don't you simply state your objections to homosexuality morally, legally or both - and any objections to Mr. McGovern's comments.

 

I am so f------g tired of hearing people use the word 'evasion' as if it were the 'scarlet letter'. Far too many objectivist use this word outside of its proper context - as a form of pre-emptive ad hominum attack. Mrs. Rand had a term for this tactic, it was called the 'argument from intimidation', unfortunately this tactic is alive and well among many of those that list themselves as her devotees.

 

I wish to God (no pun intended), that Mrs. Rand had prefaced one of her major works with a warning that accusing someone of 'evasion' is NEVER to be used casually, and without first having an absolutely clear understanding of the persons assertions and the context in which they are making them.

 

Sincerely,

 

George W. Cordero

 

PS: Add intrinsicist and subjectivist to that list as well.

 

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 8/23, 4:49pm)


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Monday, August 23, 2004 - 5:45pmSanction this postReply
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Another knee-jerk reaction to a genuine question.

Post 11

Monday, August 23, 2004 - 6:23pmSanction this postReply
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Allow my knee to jerk, too
George, Derek - Amen.

Post 12

Monday, August 23, 2004 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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Sojourner- I am led by my Lucifer Linz Dark Age Devil-made-me-do-it side to ask, "other than your review of the play, Mrs. Lincoln, do you have anything to say about the fact that your husband was shot?"

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Monday, August 23, 2004 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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??????????

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Monday, August 23, 2004 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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Thankyou for a lovely article James.
I justed wanted to ask you; do you think that the moment when you started to disbelieve what you had been told about homosexuality, and started to think for yourself - apart from the essential part played by remembering your Grandmothers' love - was also the beginning of your life as an Objectivist? 
Cass


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Monday, August 23, 2004 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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Sojourner: As George Cordero rightly assumed, I ignored your question not out of cowardice, but because your post dripped with anti-gay prejudice, and at the time I could not be bothered dealing with your problem. You knew perfectly well what I meant by "dark ages": a period of unenlightened thought and irrational attitudes - precisely the things with which James was having to contend in the 1960s. This was an era when American psychiatrists were uttering such garbage as, "While it is true that there are some unhappy heterosexuals, there can be no happy homosexuals." That James chose to defy such naysayers and lead a fulfilling life is the point we should be focusing on here.      

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Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:22pmSanction this postReply
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Cass- I already was an Objectivist. One doesn't always recognize that his thinking hasn't been original. I didn't in this case. No person is complete free of the influence of his times.

Robert - We have an old joke that goes, "Besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?", of course referring to the night Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. It was my way of asking Sojourner if, besides his historical critique, if he had any reaction to the points I made in my article. I realize that threads have their own life, but I was just curious. Probably, also, I was being a little vain, think he must have SOME reaction to my article.

Post 17

Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
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Hi James,
 
thanx for posting this story. Apart from many similar memories from my past it also brings up two points I have always been reluctant to discuss 'rationally' - much less in an objectivist forum.
 
1. The need to rationalize feelings of doubt and insecurity and the mistakes we rationalize ourselves into ...
2. What really saves our life when it comes down to it is not philosophy but our inner most being - whatever you want to call it ...
 
Philosophy to me is an objectivation of my conviction which reinforces my decisions by being able to say: I was right because ... I'm not the way I am because of objectivism, but I chose objectivism as the most compatible philosophy to what I am.
 
And that's why I enjoy objectivism so much. It puts my personal achievements, my personal powers, my own ego first. Even if sometimes that ego is not very 'rational'. Thus Ayn Rand for me was not a teacher to help me live my way, but an explanation - post facto - why I so stubbornly clung to my own beliefs and convictions - and sometimes even defended them irrationally better than rationally.
 
VSD
 
PS: very well-written - I very much enjoy articles that immediately become alive before my eyes as if I'd been present myself, seeing the story through your eyes, that you share in this article ...


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Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:29pmSanction this postReply
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I'm, sorry.  I don't understand your reply!
If you already were an objectivist, how come you accepted what you were told so easily.
And I dont accept the "I am child of my culture". 
At your age, in the same culture,  I got pregnant.  And I got told "for the sake of the child, you have to accept adoption is the only answer". and I said "Fuck you". I will decide.And  I did. And got a lot of shit.
I'm not havng a go at you James. I was only interested in the juxtaposition of your life experience / thinking process.
I still say, "Good on ya? (It's ans Aus. frase).
Cass   


Post 19

Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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First, you presume I am making an excuse for my views on homosexuality in the sixties. I am not. I am stating that this is what I believed, mostly by default.. I do believe that it is easier to see the truth today, because we, as a culture, have thought about it in much greater detail. I do not believe that Thomas Jefferson's views on life should be totally dismissed because he owned slaves. I don't even believe he should be dismissed because he thought that negroes were inferior. However, I think he was very wrong on both of these counts, and I don't think he should be excused for these views, either.
Second, Objectivists are generally better at challenging the status quo than others, but they are far from perfect. I have never read about any historical figure who rose totally above his era. The closest to achieving that feat, in my opinion, was George Washington.


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