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Friday, August 6, 2004 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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The following assertion is false:

"Since falsity is lack of correspondence with reality, if a person focuses and is in touch with reality, his beliefs cannot be false."

This is false because, to put it in information-theoretic terms, the senses, through which the rational mind is in touch with reality, have finite bandwidth. So one rationally believes what one has evidence for at this time, knowing also that some of one's current beliefs may, eventually, turn out to have been contrary to facts of reality that one does not yet have.

It follows that for a belief to be evil, it must be not only false, but either (1) held against evidence that one already has, or (2) held as an "evidence-proof" article of faith, as a belief that one would not be willing to modify even if it were to be contradicted by evidence in the future.
(Edited by Adam Reed on 8/06, 10:37am)


Post 1

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
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Hello, Irfan, Adam.
 
I agree with Adam, though I would express the objection to your formulation as the impossibility of focusing upon everything.  Honest error can arise when we draw a reasonable conclusion from a limited set of facts.  In accord with what Adam said, such error can no longer be honest if a conclusion is held after knowledge of new facts contradicting it.  Thus, for example, belief in the Ptolemaic explanation of heavenly movements was an honest error until Kepler's observations showed that the Copernican view was more accurate.
 
Regards,
Bill


Post 2

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 11:03amSanction this postReply
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Irfan wrote:
The argument’s real deficiency comes from precisely one line in one of the premises (no more, and no less). Oddly, that line is one that both Kelley and Peikoff are philosophically in a position to reject. I’ll offer what I take to be the answer in a forthcoming essay, but in the meantime, I’m curious to read what others think.
I look forward to reading your essay.  Have you considered applying the logical diagramming methods that Kelley uses in his widely circulating textbook The Art of Reasoning to illustrate your points?  I think many of us would find your employment of those tools helpful.  I have a few Word files at http://www.hydrino.org/Logic-Math.htm you can use as templates.

Regarding tolerance, my attitude remains egoistic.  If I think I can gain some net long-range value from a relationship, I maintain that relationship.  If not, I dissolve it.  Attempting to apply "justice" in any other fashion strikes me as counter to rational egoism.  I doubt my attitude would please either Peikoff or Kelley.


Post 3

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 3:10pmSanction this postReply
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This actually relates quite nicely to a point I've been meaning to bring up. I agree with both Adam and Citizen Rat, and I particularly like Adam's explanation of "finite bandwidth," but I would amend his statement to make it even stronger: not only is the human mind limited by its capacity, but also by its ability. I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that our five senses put us in touch (when we choose to focus) with reality completely. There may be aspects to reality (for example, extra dimensions) that we cannot perceive because it would not have improved our ability to survive had we evolved the senses to perceive them. Evolution, as a process, is very good at turning out products that are "good enough," but not necessarily good at turning out products that are perfect. I think it would be difficult (though perhaps possible...this is an issue I am still conflicted on) to proove that we humans are perfectly adapted to our environment. I don't think that we will be able to determine whether or not we are perfectly adapted until we learn more about the mechanics of our minds, especially how we are able to reason and make choices.

Tessa



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Friday, August 6, 2004 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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Well, as I said, I intend to write a "solution" essay for the puzzle that incorporates responses to what people say, so in order to give myself something to say then, I won't comment too much here. Suffice it to say that I am finding all these responses very interesting and very clarifying. (I knew I would--that's why I wrote the essay this way.) To let the cat out of the bag, I think the problem sentence is the one that Adam has quoted--that was the precise one I had in mind. I was going to identify the problem differently, but let me think about it before I say any more on Adam's, Citizen's or Jana's comments.

Thanks, Luther, for the software advice; I'll take a look. I do use Kelley's textbook and like it, but (and this is really a matter of taste), I don't find the diagramming technique helpful. (I didn't find it helpful in his Logical Structure manuscript, either.) When I've worked with it, I find that the less complicated the argument, the less point there is to diagram it, but the more complicated the argument, the more cumbersome it is to diagram it. But it's possible the argument is easier to digest that way; I don't know.

Toleration deserves an essay of its own, which I'll get to at some point. Though I agree with your formulation, I would say the exact reverse of it as you do: I don't see why either Kelley or Peikoff would disagree with it.

(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 8/06, 3:48pm)

(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 8/06, 3:49pm)


Post 5

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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Speaking of logic diagrams, here is a site that offers free software for diagramming arguments:

http://www.goreason.com/

I find it interesting that you think both Peikoff and Kelley would generally agree with my egoistic formulation.  I look forward to reading more from you on the subject of egoistic relationship management and its connection to the passage of moral judgment.


Post 6

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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I think an error lies in assuming that "drifting" at the fundamental level is necessarily morally wrong or dishonest.  I would define drifting as simply letting an issue be, without focusing on it.  At the fundamental level, then, since I can only consciously focus on one given issue at a time, I am required to "drift" regarding any other given issue, at that time.  This argument sounds like requiring mental omnipotence (an ability to simultaneously think about all relevant issues) for morality.

But then again, I have not seen these arguments in full.  Does "drifting" take on a different meaning than what I'm assuming?  Does it mean, instead, that the general state of one's mind should never be "drifting?"  If so, is "rest" evil?


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Post 7

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Error and Evil

 

Since, the question is not whether evil is error but error can result without being evil, this merits the consideration of either a) the failure of virtuous processes to guarantee knowledge or b) the lack of culpability of some faulty processes.

 

First a): Since rationality is not a simple act but the result an iterative learning process that requires the interplay of thought and practice, the virtue of rationality is best described as "appropriate" to knowledge. Without cultivating the virtue of rationality, one will be overwhelmed and unable to integrate; error will be almost unavoidable. Even with adequate application, excellence does not imply perfect execution every time. It only means the reduction of errors to a tolerable level – one in which monitoring and correction can ward-off serious consequences in normal situations. This results in minor errors. This implies the weak version. However, I will reject that as well.

 

There is still one dimension that Objectivism treats inadequately. This is the social gain from a division of labor and the cumulative advance of human knowledge. Human awareness is finite. To bring the world within the range of human awareness in a non-contradictory manner requires standing on the “shoulders of giants”. In other words, we can gain immeasurably from the rational achievement of others. We can do “plausibility checks” and verify core concepts (or the core of concepts) but not reproduce the total effort that established human knowledge. However, this great source of knowledge comes with a cost: some errors will come with the package. This can result in major errors especially without an adequate choice of “shoulders”.

 

There’s one more complication to add to the analysis (let’s deal with b). Awareness is not singular. At any moment there are many thoughts, ideas, and perceptions that vie for attention. One can honestly choose to deal with only a few. The others are still felt even if only dimly. Thus, there is still some culpability which rarely warrants such a harsh term but I have no other. Let’s just say one feels inappropriate to the task if one senses there are outstanding issues that one hasn’t dealt with. One implicitly knows that knowledge requires non-contradiction and one hasn’t examined all the relevant associations. I think Branden does a better job dealing with these issues that the Manichean rhetoric of Peikoff.

 


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Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 5:35pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jana,

Can you explain what you mean by this?

I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that our five senses put us in touch (when we choose to focus) with reality completely.
 
I know you cannot mean our senses do not put us in touch with every bit of reality there is, which would be absurd and unnecessary. Since the only reality we can know is the one we can be aware (conscious) of, and our only means of consciousness is the one we directly perceive by means of what we usually (and mistakenly) call our "five senses," what can there be about reality we are not perceptually conscious of in some way? (I am excluding life, consciousness, and volition, which we do not directly perceive.)

Regi 


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Post 9

Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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Ben, Jason,

I think you both have addressed questions that are important, and in part, related.

It seems to me, one point you both have made is that attention (which I prefer to focus, which I think Rand used metaphorically) cannot be fully applied to everything we are conscious of and we must choose which things to attend to and which to, at least temporarily, "put aside," so to speak. And of course we cannot be conscious of everything.

But I think there is one distinction I would make that seems missing in this discussion, which is the nature of evil itself.

I would say that anything contrary to the truth is evil. It does not matter if I believe the food I am about to eat is nourishing because of ignorance or because of some kind of evasion of the truth, if it is poison, its effect will still be evil.

The difference is not a matter of evil, but moral culpability. Acting contrary to the truth is always, "evil," in the sense of harmful (or at least not beneficial), but only acting contrary to the truth intentionally is "morally" evil.

Reality does not forgive any act contrary to its nature, our own nature does not forgive any intentional defiance of reality. We can learn from ignorant acts of evil and frequently correct them; intentional acts of evil are self-reinforcing and nothing can assuage the sense of guilt, which is the response of our very natures to intentional conscious defiance of the truth.

Regi


Post 10

Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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Here is a restatement of the statement Reginald called into question: It is possible that there are aspects of reality our five senses are not able to perceive.

I have two examples:

1) Superstring theory postulates that the universe may have many more than the conventional three dimensions plus time (Einstein's spacetime manifold). According to superstring theory, the universe may have eleven dimensions, seven of which we cannot sense.

2) (This one I'm cribbing from a former professor.) Animal behaviorists have proven that geese recognize each other's faces, but experiments testing whether or not humans could learn to recognize individual geese showed that humans, in fact, cannot. There is some "hidden variable" in the patterns of color on the faces of geese that humans cannot detect or learn to memorize. This example may be analogous to dog whistles that humans can't hear because our ears don't perceive the same range of frequencies.

I want to emphasize that I'm not ruling out the possibility that humans ARE or have the POTENTIAL to be perfectly in touch with reality. However, I think it would be very hard to proove that this is the case. We know that we can use reason to expand the limitations of our senses (we can build microscopes, telescopes, x-ray machines) but I doubt reason could be used to expand our senses infinitely. In particular, Heisenburg's Uncertainty Principle and the constancy of the speed of light seem to suggest that there are limits to knowledge.

Tessa

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Post 11

Sunday, August 8, 2004 - 6:33amSanction this postReply
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Hi Jana,

Your restatement is exactly what I expected. The point I am addressing (not trying to make) is a very subtle one, and not the one most people think of. For example, you think the point is this:

It is possible that there are aspects of reality our five senses are not able to perceive.
 
In fact, there are more things we cannot perceive than there are that we can, but it is irrelevant.

The point is, there is nothing human beings can know that we do not know, directly or indirectly, from what we are directly conscious of. The only things we cannot know that way, we cannot know at all, which I will address in a moment.

In both of your examples, the knowledge is derived, if it is knowledge, from what can be directly perceptually observed. Superstrings (a hypothesis, not a theory) are an attempt to explain certain observed phenomena. If the phenomena were never observed, the hypothesis would never have been posited. If we could no perceptually observe geese and their behavior, the knowledge they can recognize each other would be impossible. That knowledge is derived from what can be observed at the perceptual level. Ultimately all knowledge is only about the world we directly perceive, or it is not knowledge at all.

Here is one of the things wrong with the idea that sensory limitations place limits on our knowledge of reality. If you and another student study the same things your entire life, assuming you both have similar mental abilities and apply yourselves equally, which will have the better understanding of reality? But suppose one of you is blind.

This brings me to what we cannot know. If you are the blind student, you will never know what I mean by "red" as I perceive it. For that matter, you cannot know what I mean by "red" as I perceive it, even if you are not blind, because we cannot consciously perceive anyone else's subjective experiences. Or, for that matter, we can never know what the perceptual experiences of any living creature actually are.

"Limits to knowledge," is not the same thing as saying, "imperfectly in touch with reality," unless all you mean is we are not omniscient or infallible. We cannot be in prefect, or even imperfect touch with all of reality, but we can be and usually are in perfect touch with all the reality we need to be in touch with to live successfully in this world. The child that has learned the difference between oranges and lemons and knows he likes the taste of oranges, but not the taste of lemons, is in perfect touch with that part of reality.


Uncertainty Principle and the constancy of the speed of light seem to suggest that there are limits to knowledge.
 
Our knowledge of the uncertainty principle and our knowledge of the constancy of the speed of light (which presently is in some doubt), in fact, suggest the limits to our knowledge have not been discovered in the scientific realm, and there is nothing to suggest we will not continually push back the limits of our knowledge in this area.

As for the uncertainty principle, the limit is not one of knowledge at all, it is a limit of our current method of dealing with certain scientific experimental data. Since "particles" are described as "wave phenomena" and the behavior can be described using the same formulas by which waves can be described (e.g. fourier transforms), but cannot be simultaneously conceived as both particles and waves (which are dynamic, that is, have no steady state), the attempt to determine at any precise "location" a particle's momentum (which must be static in some way, that is, have some steady state) by means of wave formulas is impossible. The importance of this is terribly overblown. It only means, "by this method," we cannot make this determination.

Regi


Post 12

Sunday, August 8, 2004 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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A very quick response to Ben Hoffman:

I was going to address the issue you raise in some detail in the "solution" essay, but you've put the issue in a way that is perfect for a quick comment. You say:
At the fundamental level, then, since I can only consciously focus on one given issue at a time, I am required to "drift" regarding any other given issue, at that time.
What you are describing here as "drift" is not what Rand has in mind by it.  The "drift" you're describing is not a fundamental alternative to focus; it's an act one would have to perform while in focus.

But let me step back a bit and say that I think it's a mistake to speak of "focusing on an issue." On Rand's view, you don't focus-on-an-issue; you focus (period); then having done so, you can subsequently pay attention to this or that issue. In other words, focusing is a basic act of "turning on" your conceptual consciousness; it precedes any act of turning it in this direction or that, i.e., of paying attention to one issue at the expense of another.

Drift, as Rand means it, is the alternative to focusing in the basic "turning on" sense I've described. The alternatives that Rand envisions are: either {turn-on-your-conceptual-consciousness [focus]} or {do-not-engage-the-world-in-conceptual-terms-at-all [drift]}. Notice that the latter alternative doesn't refer to "paying attention to x while letting y slide out of awareness." If you are paying attention to x, you are already in focus. And there is nothing culpable about the quoted act; in fact, there is no human way to avoid doing it.

So to answer your other question more directly: is rest culpable? No, not if it's in focus. Going farther: is daydreaming culpable? No, not if it's in focus. Is fantasizing or engaging in stream-of-conscious free association culpable? No, not if it's in focus. It would take more time than I have to explain that thought fully, but my point is that one has to distinguish between something like pure drift (considered as an alternative to focusing) and focused drift (which is where, having focused, you let your mind "go" for a while). For Rand, the first is always culpable, but not necessarily the second. And it's even misleading to call the second "drift" at all.

Anyway, you're absolutely right to suggest that "drift" is a highly equivocal term that needs a great deal more clarification and elaboration than it's so far gotten.  


Post 13

Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
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Salaams

I will be extremely breif. I just wanted to state that I loved the article. Irfan Khawaja never fails to amaze me.

--Hakim


Post 14

Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
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Salaams

I will be extremely breif. I just wanted to state that I loved the article. Irfan Khawaja never fails to amaze me.

--Hakim


Post 15

Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 6:48amSanction this postReply
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Wa'alaikum salam. And thanks.

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