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Post 40

Wednesday, August 4, 2004 - 10:54pmSanction this postReply
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O.K Orion, I can't resist continuing to weigh in on the war on Iraq in my quest to prove that both you and Linz are actually altruists.

1) Weapons of mass destruction are so named because they achieve the mass murder of human beings.  Well, guess what... a "weapon of mass destruction" is anything that efficiently and quickly slaughters lots and lots of people; that means that it does not have to take the form of a missile.  The entire Hussein regime was a "weapon of mass destruction".  That rat bastard gleefully slaughtered untold thousands -- if not millions -- of his own countrymen, and was enthusiastically participating and applauding the mass murder of Americans. 
Come on, that is not what people understood by the term WMD.  You 'dropped context' ;) It was being claimed that Iraq had weapons capable of striking other countries.  In that context, the WMD claim was false.  There is no evidence that Iraq was a threat to the United States. 


2) True, the actual purpose of the US Armed Forces is self-defense only.  And the proactive dismantling of a WMD (The Hussein regime) that has been designed for our destruction, is self-defense.  ONLY.
No it isn't.  The Hussein regime was not what was meant by the term WMD.  Within the context of 'weapon capable of hitting the U.S' the claim of WMD was false.  The proactive dismantling of the Hussein regime was not self-defence, because the Hussein regime had no way of hurting the U.S. 

1) Again, for the reasons I've said, Iraq was a threat
You gave no reasons why Iraq was an immediate threat to the United States.  At all.

The main argument for the war, of course, was that Saddam was doing what he could to aid our attackers
The report from the recent 9/11 commission in the U.S concluded that there was no evidence at all that Saddam was doing what he could to aid our attackers.

(and let's be honest, was sitting on oil fields... and the world underground oil supplies are secretly running out
A war fought for oil is not a war of self-defence.  The costs of the war far exceeded the value of the Oil.  And besides which the claim that 'oil supplies are running out' is false.  At current rates of usage there are enough Oil reserves to last another 90 years.  

 
3) Because Saddam was 1) a participatory threat to us,
You have so far provided zero evidence that Saddam was a participatory threat to the United States.

2) was killing off people who could presumably be good and productive citizens like ourselves... and if we allow that, we say it's okay for us to be killed off, too, and,
This is an altruistic argument.  U.S tax payers have had to cough up over
 $US 200 billion  dollars on the liberation of Iraq so far.  Why should U.S capitalists have to pay this huge sum of money purely to liberate people in foreign lands?  The stated purpose of the U.S armed forces is self-defence only.  You have provided zero evidence that Iraq was a threat to the United States.  The argument that Saddam was a scum-bag killing potentially good and productive citizens and so the U.S should remove him from power is an altruistic argument for war.  If you and Linz give this argument, then you are altruists.   



oh yeah, 3) oil underground, that's why we really went to war,
Sorry, but the total costs of the war in Iraq so far are over $US 200 billion and rising.  This is far more than can be recovered from Iraqi Oil revenues.  Besides which the Oil has been given the Iraqi people.  Oil won't run for another 90 years and a war fought for Oil would not be war of self-defence anyway.

 
So it would seem that indeed "Onion" and Linz are both not altruists.  We advocate valiant and comprehensive selfishness, because yes, selfishness does not always have to be short-sighted, cutthroat and miserly.
I'm afraid that you and Linz are altruists.  The only coherent argument for the war you've given me is that Saddam was a scum-bag killing heaps of his own people.  I don't disagree with you, but if you want to use this an argment for war you are an altruist, because Saddam was no threat to the U.S and it was definitely not tbut in he rational self-interest of the U.S to take over $US 200 billion dollars from U.S tax payers to finance the war. 














 


Post 41

Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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Marc said: Why?  After all, the WMD claim was false.  So Iraq was no threat. 
 
No threat? Mayhap the publicly stated reason for the war wasn't correct, but to say Iraq posed no threat is riduculous. In any case, I know your not SURE it posed no threat. SH threatened us all the time, but I suppose you think he didn't really mean it. I suppose you think we had no business over there.  I thought you were an altruist Marc. If you are, then you should believe that his massive violation of the rights of the Iraqi people should be reason enough to go to war. So what do you beleive in?
 
Ethan
 


Post 42

Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 8:42amSanction this postReply
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Marc,

You keep using this term "altruist", and claiming that Linz and I have "no defense" against it... Well, you must be employing some secret definition for that term that allows you to label us as such, while I remain completely and utterly baffled by how you can use it.

Again, it all comes down to controlling language... "altruist" to me, means someone who sacrifices themselves or something of themselves to benefit others in some way, while they gain nothing. 

By my definition, I see no intent or movement on our part to "sacrifice" ourselves here.  I see that we only stood to gain, or to lose no more than we were already going to lose if we let the polyp that is Hussein continue to grow and metastasize.  We knew this, and we went in based on this awareness... the potential gain was ours, and the losses were unavoidable even if we did nothing.

There's something deeply wrong with you, if you do not understand that that which is espoused by a person (Hussein and pretty much the majority of the Arab world), is the key determinant of what they will do, if ever given the chance. 

Much as I judge the Bible to be a brainwashing document, designed to create masses and herds of thralls out of what would otherwise be rational, objective human beings, I do find some very important sniglets of truth in it... one of them is the passage which goes something like this:

"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

Hussein has made it crystal clear on more than one occasion, his total and utter grandiose disregard for anyone or anything other than his own vanity... That is what dwells in his "heart".  It determines who and what he is.  And nothing bears a one-to-one correlation to what actions a person will take in life, like what a person is.
 
If he couldn't come after us himself, he would have assisted those who would, in any way possible.

And as far as this "altruist" notion goes, either define what you mean by that, or I'm through paying you the respect of listening to your arguments, because ultimately you're not really listening to mine... especially with regards to my labored explanations as to why we are not altruists...

Before you reflexively harp again on how our wanting to prevent and punish Hussein for what he has done to his own people -- who are not us -- is altruism, either go back and read my previous posts in this string on this matter, or be prepared to be ignored on this matter from this point on.



Post 43

Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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Orion, Duncan, Rodney, Luke,

I've been thinking about the word 'libertarianism' a lot lately, as a result of the panel discussion that Linz, Robert Bidinotto, David Kelley, and Eric Mack had at the TOC conference in Vancouver last month, and also because of the dustup (re: Peikoff/Kelley) that is occurring on Diana's Hsieh's blog now.

I've never been a member of the LP or described myself as a 'libertarian', but I did have some sympathy for the party based on its better members.  Today, though, the party has become an eternal embarrassment to the point that I now find myself less repelled by the Republican Party than by the LP.

Peter Schwartz's piece was a hatchet job with little objectivity or fairness (and I urge you to read the original pamphlet to see what I mean, if you can find it, as it was longer and harsher than the edited version that made it into VOR.)  But now the bad elements that Schwartz identified in American libertarianism ( - he ignorantly or maliciously failed to distinguish the Libertarian Party from the libertarian cultural movement, many of whose intellectual leaders were repugned by the party and vocally denounced it at the time - ) have grown in influence and visibility.

The 9/11 atrocities represented a turning point, at least for American libertarianism, in that it revealed what too many libertarians on these shores were, or had become.  After flattering themselves as Davids to Uncle Sam's Goliath for so long, their mental control levers had become permanently rusted into the 'hate US' position.  With the fall of the Twin Towers, this became transmogrified into the 'hate America' position, if it was not already.  Many were now seen to be what statists, conventional religionists, and Schwartz had always claimed that they were: nasty, brutish, jeering anti-social little misfits, defending "individual rights" and "peace" by being quicker and more vitriolic in denouncing our government for writing them a speeding ticket than in denouncing Saddam for a genocide or a surprise military invasion.  Too many libertarians are now what Linz calls 'Saddamites' and what I call members of the PMP Brigade.  My position on libertarianism has become similar to that of my good friend Paul Hsieh in his recent comments on his wife's site. (http://www.dianahsieh.com/blog/2004/08/documents-sanction-and-confusion.html)

But this thread is about language, and Linz raised a linguistic issue with respect to libertarianism at the TOC panel discussion:  libertarianism is a political movement dedicated to liberty, and liberty in fact requires reason to define and sustain it.  So it is up to us, the rational defenders of liberty, to reclaim the word 'libertarianism' from the subjectivist nincompoops who have hijacked it.   And in any event libertarianism is an international movement which in New Zealand has not been hijacked as it has been in the US.  (That's the gist of his point, my apologies for not being able to word it as he did.) 

If he is correct, then Schwartz and others are wrong to attack the word 'libertarian', however right they are to attack certain creatures who currently drape themselves in its banner.  This would be analogous to Rand (correctly) reclaiming the true meanings of 'selfish' and 'ego' from the layers of misrepresentation spattered on them by generations of altruist propagandists.

-Bill

Post 44

Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I am not intrinsically against Libertarianism, so long as it advocates reason in addition to liberty... and this next bit may sound strange, but one of my biggest gripes is that people don't more carefully choose the terms that they use to describe themselves.  The term "Objectivism" is brilliant to me, because it describes something much better than just liberty; it describes objectivity.

However, with that said, considering much of what populates Objectivism and what is actually being stressed within the group, I tend to think that a better term for the group, in many cases, might be "Rationalism".... This is simply due to the fact that many Objectivists practice only the rationalizing part of Objectivism, but do not show much awareness of the need for the other half of objectivity, which is openness to seemingly counterintuitive evidence.

Now that I think about it, perhaps "Intuitivism" might be an even better term for what's being practiced in many cases.


Post 45

Thursday, August 5, 2004 - 11:39pmSanction this postReply
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Marc,

You keep using this term "altruist", and claiming that Linz and I have "no defense" against it... Well, you must be employing some secret definition for that term that allows you to label us as such, while I remain completely and utterly baffled by how you can use it.

Again, it all comes down to controlling language... "altruist" to me, means someone who sacrifices themselves or something of themselves to benefit others in some way, while they gain nothing. 
You can continue to use your straw-man definition of altruism if you want to.  Of course I'm against that kind of altruism, just as you are.   

Again it all comes down to controlling langauge....the dictionary definition of "selfishness" definitely doesn't match the definition Rand was using.  In fact she twisted the definition away from its common usage so much, that she was simply unjustified in using the term in the way she did.  Objectivists must be employing some secret definition for the term 'egoist' that allows them to label yourselves as such, while I remain completely and utterly baffled by how you Objectivists can use the term in a way which fails to conform to any known dictionary defintion.

I asked you to provide reasons why the war in Iraq was justified solely in terms of an egoist ethical theory.  You were quite unable to provide such a justification.  Therefore a full justifcation for the war on Iraq requires at least *some* degree of altruism.

Before you reflexively harp again on how our wanting to prevent and punish Hussein for what he has done to his own people -- who are not us -- is altruism, either go back and read my previous posts in this string on this matter, or be prepared to be ignored on this matter from this point on.
I have read all your previous posts, and I can see no justification for the war in terms of strict egoist arguments.  The facts are clear:

(1)  SH was in no position to do harm to other countries (no WMD's). 
(2)  The purpose of the U.S armed forces is self-defense only
(3)  Forcing U.S tax-payers to hand over more than $US 200 billion to finance a war which runs contrary to (2) contradicts strict egoism.

Mind you I should point out that I haven't said that I'm against the war.  I just said that the war cannot be justified in strict egoist terms.  I don't need to define altruism.  Since I showed the war can't be justified in strict egoist terms, it follows that there must be *some* kind of altruism underlying the thinking of those support it. 

As for being ignored I couldn't give a stuff mate.  I found out long ago that speaking to Objectivists is rather like talking to religious fundamentalists.  Kinda fun but it gets old real quick. 





 


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Post 46

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 8:43amSanction this postReply
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You said:

I found out long ago that speaking to Objectivists is rather like talking to religious fundamentalists. 


Since you're "speaking to Objectivists", that seems to state that you're not one.  Then why are you on this forum? 

SOLO means "Sense of Life Objectivists". 
 
Aside from this, no matter how clearly I make the point that none of these actions in Iraq have to be the result of altruism, you still continue to employ the strategy of sticking your fingers in your ears and continuing to chant your mantra of "you haven't proven it".  You obviously plan on "winning" by just ram-rodding that statement down our throats until your propaganda becomes "reality":

I asked you to provide reasons why the war in Iraq was justified solely in terms of an egoist ethical theory.  You were quite unable to provide such a justification.
You continually do this, and it's a transparent strategy.  You are the sort of person who hypothetically might try to "prove" that 1 + 1 = 3, by telling anyone who repeatedly adds up 1 + 1 and gets 2, that they "haven't proven" their point. 

There's a name for this sort of "strategy"... it's called denial.  It's also called just outright lying, even wear-down.  It's not new.

Your oily strategy is simply to wear others down by deliberately ignoring the mechanics of their argument, and just state lies as truth, until the other person concedes out of exhaustion.  Healthy people eventually outgrow this kind of conduct and leave it in the playground sandbox where it belongs; obviously you haven't.  I am completely and utterly through with discussing this or any other matter with you, as you have invalidated yourself as an objective person.

I have decided to give you credit for the valid points that you have made throughout this ongoing debate, yet you haven't done the same with me.  Your strategy is that you're always right, period, and that one either agrees with you or is wrong, independent of your actual rightness.  You actively maintain a one-way street, that directs all agreement only in your direction, and gives not one bit away when it's truly warranted.

So, as far as this comment of yours goes:
As for being ignored I couldn't give a stuff mate.
You can stuff it... "mate".

(Edited by Orion Reasoner on 8/06, 8:54am)


Post 47

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Hey Orion: Pay no attention to Marc,  he not sure why he's here :-)

Post 48

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Hey Orion: Pay no attention to Marc,  he not sure why he's here :-)

Post 49

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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Orion said: You continually do this, and it's a transparent strategy.  You are the sort of person who hypothetically might try to "prove" that 1 + 1 = 3, by telling anyone who repeatedly adds up 1 + 1 and gets 2, that they "haven't proven" their point. 


OUTSTANDING!



Post 50

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Thanks... My struggle is to find just the right way to word things, so that I do the most justice to my actual sentiment.


Post 51

Friday, August 6, 2004 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Thanks... My struggle is to find just the right way to word things, so that I do the most justice to my actual sentiment.


Post 52

Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 12:15amSanction this postReply
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Your oily strategy is simply to wear others down by deliberately ignoring the mechanics of their argument, and just state lies as truth, until the other person concedes out of exhaustion.  Healthy people eventually outgrow this kind of conduct and leave it in the playground sandbox where it belongs; obviously you haven't.  I am completely and utterly through with discussing this or any other matter with you, as you have invalidated yourself as an objective person.

I'm shattered by your amazing Objectivity and reasoning abilites!  I'm glad all these posts are open to the public so everyone in the world can see what an intellectual giant you are and how you brilliantly defended egoism. 

See ya.  Enjoy your delusions.


Post 53

Saturday, August 7, 2004 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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Marc:
"I have read all your previous posts, and I can see no justification for the war in terms of strict egoist arguments." 

Ed:
Marc, I think you have used the "justified-war" issue as a mere tool/weapon to lash out at O-ists. A distinction required for you to have any real point here would deal with recognizing at least one categorical differentiation:

The "initiation of a war" VERSUS the "propagation of a $200 Billion enterprise"

Remember also, that some of us O-ists are actually characterized as "Saddamites" who either:

1) would not have moved when Bush did

AND/OR

2) would not have moved in-the-specific-way that he did

To treat this issue as if it is so simple a characterization (even if a couple O-ists have previously done this) is to reveal an immoral lackluster with regard to the truth of the matter - a focus on winning debates, rather than any possibility of mutual understanding of the matter or progress on the issue of how best to act.


Marc:
The facts are clear:
(1)  SH was in no position to do harm to other countries (no WMD's). 
(2)  The purpose of the U.S armed forces is self-defense only
(3)  Forcing U.S tax-payers to hand over more than $US 200 billion to finance a war which runs contrary to (2) contradicts strict egoism.

Ed:
Marc, while you have a point here (the above contains "truth"), you're shy on relevance (you've merely set up a Straw-Man to knock down). And statements need both truth and relevance to be worthy of human focus (merely speaking truth is not sufficient in a debate aimed at real value).

You're correct in categorizing recent activity of our mixed-economy as something which contradicts ethical individualism (my preferred term). This is due to the fundamental incoherency of command economies, and not to any assumed incoherency within individualism proper.

You are merely using the popular, though uncritical, argument for Natural Law (whatever IS must be GOOD) as a floating abstraction across contexts (whatever IS DONE must be adequately justified by a current or proposed ethical system).

When a critical mass of facts have been retrieved, it may be found that there was no objective justification for the war, but this IN NO WAY smears ethical individualism as the right ethic for humans to exist by. So, if all previous justifications are later found to be bogus, then so what (individualism would remain unscathed by this fallen Straw-Man).

Ed

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