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Post 60

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 2:46pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne, your post is a little confusing.  You don't want patents to interfere with someone inventing the idea himself, but you don't like the non-obvious qualification that is specifically intended to prevent or reduce that.  Is it that you don't think it's strict enough?

I wonder how you'd go about proving any invention cannot be invented by anyone else.  I don't think you can.  If you thought of it, certainly it's possible someone else could as well.  It would be impossible to prove it.  You mention it being as unique to you as Atlas Shrugged is to Ayn Rand, but that misses the point of patents.  It's the principle of the solution that's being patented, not the exact implementation.  If I build a new ray gun for the military, it may be that you can tell definitively that I did it, since it's got so many cool lightning bolts painted on it.  But if you use the basic mechanism I invented, but modify it slightly, it would be an infringement on the patent IP.  I don't care that you didn't paint lightning bolts on it or engraved "Joe rules!" on the bottom.  You've still copied by design.

So I don't think that burden of proof can be met.  If you think so, I'd love to hear an example.

What we have today is a pretty reasonable system to implement them.  It may not be perfect, but it's designed pretty well to reduce problems, and make exceptions when they do occur.  As I said before, there are point you can argue about, but I don't see anyone suggesting a significantly better system, with better being defined as the actual protection of one's IP rights.


Post 61

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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George & Joe: I'm open to elaborating on my position, including all the practicalities of why it could work just fine, but the thing is, I'm not the one advocating the use of force against thinkers. I really think it's the advocates of the current form of patents who have the burden of proof. And if you're an Objectivist advocating this use of force, then I'd like to see the argument integrated to Objectivism.

If you don't have such an argument, then you're in the uncomfortable position of advocating, without knowing why, the initiation of force against those who never did anything wrong, who are guilty only of thinking. It is not me who has the explaining to do. It is you.

Incidentally, this issue has come up numerous times on HBL, and to my recollection no one ever offered a principled argument. It was all an iteration of pragmatic things like, "well, if we didn't permit the force, then no one would be motivated to invent" (which is a silly argument in addition to being unprincipled).


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Post 62

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

I was afraid that I was going to open a can of worms with that Indian thing. But just for the record, I do not agree with the barbarous cruelty that was inflicted on American Indians (which was a picnic compared to some of the things that were done in Brazil). You can read Leave My Heart At Wounded Knee for a popular historical account of this cruelty, broken treaties and all.

On the other hand, a really pissed or wound up Indian was no laughing matter on the range either. You could literally lose your scalp before or after a very painful long-drawn-out death. What happened in fact was an extended war of conquest with brief pauses.

The moral defense for this I mentioned above was that one people (Indians) used vast tracts of land - really big two-three state size tracts (and even bigger) to merely roam on. That was their claim to the land. They wanted to roam.

White settlers from the East made a use of this land that included "intellectual property," like large scale farming techniques, building of cities, railroads, etc. That is why I like Robert Binidotto's observation on all property deriving from intellectual property so much.

btw - I don't know if he got that from somewhere, but I am going to put it down in my book of quotes.

The idea of an individual owning a small tract of real estate was completely foreign to Indian thinking, so this was a practical difficulty in even making property deals with tribes. Also, the idea of positive and negative rights and so forth held little or no meaning for them. (That does not excuse the broken treaties and massacres of peaceful Indians, though.)

Michael



Post 63

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
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George:
Shayne, I understand your argument - but it seems to me that one should not create laws on the standard of "proove that no else could have thought of it". That "could" leaves an enormous amount of room and endless variables. I believe a more objective standard is required.
On the contrary, the standard that the 2nd inventor has to prove that he thought of it independently violates the "innocent until proven guilty standard". With the current patent system, if you come up with something that happens to have been patented, you're guilty until you prove you're innocent - which flies in the face of objective law.

And speaking of non-objective, the current patent system rules have allowed so many things to be patented that it is literally impossible for any inventor to keep up with it. An objective system would at least give you the means to prevent yourself from wasting your life inventing and creating something that you were just going to be sued for anyway, without having to hire a truckload of lawyers.


Post 64

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:17pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne says: George & Joe: I'm open to elaborating on my position, including all the practicalities of why it could work just fine, but the thing is, I'm not the one advocating the use of force against thinkers.

I am not advocating the use of force. I am advocating the protection of individual rights (IP)*from* force. In this case the force of fraud by intellectual theft.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/29, 3:18pm)


Post 65

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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I am not advocating the use of force. I am advocating the protection of individual rights (IP)*from* force. In this case the force of fraud by intellectual theft.
Copy-cats are of secondary importance to the principle here. What's important are the innovators who happen to re-invent something someone else did. Just as criminals are of secondary importance to innocently convicted men when it comes to formulating objective laws. Our legal system is designed - correctly - to err on the side of letting a criminal slip through in order to prevent innocent men from being jailed. The same idea should hold for the patent system.


Post 66

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne: On the contrary, the standard that the 2nd inventor has to prove that he thought of it independently violates the "innocent until proven guilty standard".

You are inverting the logic here.

The man that  filed the patent is the one offering the proof of his invention. It is the holder of the patent that your logic is forcing to proove his own innocence, without the presumption of that innocence, in spite of the fact that the emprical evidence points towards the validity of his calim of authorship/creation.

George


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Post 67

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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George: My logic is definitely inverted relative to your logic.

Your thinking is totally detached from the reality of what is going on here. Your twistings to make your conclusions fit the principles I indicated (which you evidently agree with) are the real inversion. 

You claim that I'm "forcing" the original inventor to "prove his own innocence." Talk about circular thinking. That entire thought presumes your conclusion that patents as we have now ought to be enforced. It's the premise *you*, not I, are on the hook to validate. You haven't the logical right to assume it, in fact that's a standard fallacy.

On top of that, *exactly*, *concretely* what guilt do you say I'm lumping on this original inventor that he has to prove his innocence from? What exactly did I say that was an accusation of guilt? I think you are using the word "innocent", merely because I used it and as a tool to play word games with me, without understanding what the word means.


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Post 68

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 4:24pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne, No word games intended. For you, the patent holder will be forced to prove that another person did not steal his idea/invention. You would put him in the position of having to validate a claim against an impossible burden of proof. Except for some extraordinary exception I cannot think of , this cannot be done. Since "could" is the standard you would use, the burden of his proof is not 'beyond a reasonable doubt', but would require beyond *any* doubt. In the end, the patent holder has his idea stolen with the help of the same government that was supposed to protect his property rights. By changing the law, as you would have it, the thief is given more than the benefit of a reasonable doubt - or a presumed innocence - he is given immunity. The patent holder is then left as no more than a perjurer filing a false charge - by default.

Earlier you said, "I'm open to elaborating on my position, including all the practicalities of why it could work just fine, ... "

Perhaps if you do so I would be able get some greater clarity as to the thrust of your argument.

George



Post 69

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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Patent enforcement sure seems backwords to me. I am weary of supporting patents, and for myself, I do not think I would ever try to submit one unless I was very sure that others would not be able to reproduce my work in the near future.

Instead of outright accepting the current patent system, I will try to come up with a new system. There must be some way that inventors can willingly and profitably release their ideas to the world without having a law that includes guilty until proven innocent. Technology is quite different today then when the patent system was established. Maybe there is something obvious out there, but we just haven't thought of it yet because our minds are stuck in the US Government box. If we come up with something that is more profitable than patents that does not require an initiation of force, I would be very happy.

Post 70

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
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One might argue that since the current patent system requires guilty until proven innocent, it is unjust.

One might argue that since a man's labor is being used out of his control, it is unjust.

Yuck, it seems like we have to choose between two evils. I guess for now, since it is so easy to provide evidence that you are innocent in a patent lawsuit, patents are ooooo--k.

Post 71

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 8:24pmSanction this postReply
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What about something like an Internet registration, much as is done with domain names?


Post 72

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:02amSanction this postReply
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George:
For you, the patent holder will be forced to prove that another person did not steal his idea/invention. You would put him in the position of having to validate a claim against an impossible burden of proof.
No. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that the standard for patents should be made stricter, as strict as copyrights, such that it would not be possible that two people could have come up with the same design. If two people could have thought of the same thing, then that thereby makes it illegitimate. It is patently wrong to use the government to interfere with someone's use of his own idea merely because he thought of it 2nd (pun intended).

I will elaborate, but only after someone has made at least a minimal attempt at justifying why some inventor should have a gun pointed to his head for the "crime" of independently thinking up the same idea that someone else happened to have thought of first. You have made zero effort at justifying this use of force, and yet posture as if I'm the one being ridiculous. Now *that's* ridiculous.


Post 73

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
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Dean:
Yuck, it seems like we have to choose between two evils.
Check your premises.

Many ideas can be protected by other means. Means that do not violate the rights of innocent inventors.

For example, Tesla's AC motor could have been built in secret, not revealed to anyone, and when installed it would not have been difficult to maintain security so no one knew how he built them. Many designs are complex enough that you can hide "watermarks" in them that prove they were copied. And in any case, you are free to bring suit against someone when there's evidence that he illegally reverse-engineered some device of yours. If found guilty, then both him and those who have profited would have to give up whatever they made from the activity.


Post 74

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne Wissler:

Joe said the following: "If you can prove you invented it independently, and some people do, then you're not prevented from using it."

Is this inaccurate?

Post 75

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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Dean: It's *grossly* misleading:

 - You might be permitted to use your invention for your own purposes, but you aren't permitted to sell anything based on it. Which is tantamount to not being permitted to use your invention.

 - Why should you have to ask someone's permission to use what you yourself came up with? You shouldn't, not if you have rights to your own creations.

*Again* - the onus is not on me to prove my case. I am not the one arguing that we should create a system that violates the rights of inventors. It's Joe & George, and every other Objectivist who favors this form of rights violation, who are on the hook here. And George has added one more form of invalid counter-argument to the list. In addition to the argument from pragmatism, we now have the "pretend the 2nd inventor's rights aren't violated" argument.


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Post 76

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 6:00pmSanction this postReply
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This popped up as a random article.  I noticed I didn't reply to some points at the end, not that I always do.  But there are a couple interesting points.

First, asking why an inventor of an idea should have to ask permission from another is misleading.  We could just as easily ask why the original inventor shouldn't be able to decide how his idea is going to be used.  By narrowly focusing on the second inventor, it argues for a complete dismissal of patent protection.  If there's always a chance someone might have invented it on their own, you have to allow anyone to use any idea they want.  As George points out, it's an impossible burden on the first creator to prove that a following person didn't come up with it independently.

I actually like the analogy with the criminal justice system from post 65.  I disagree with the conclusion, though.  Our justice system does try to err on the safe side.  But ultimately, it still exists.  We still arrest criminal and punish them, even though we think protecting the innocent is important.  Even if there is still a possibility of a mistake.  We build the system as best we can (not that it is the best that it can be!!!), but you have to live with the possibility of a mistake.

To follow the analogy with patent rights, we should seek to avoid penalizing people who actually do invent something on their own.  Sure, let's even err on the safe side a little.  But completely ignoring the IP rights violators is not simply erring on the safe side.  It's letting the criminal run free and completely destroying our rights.  It would be like letting every criminal go free to be absolutely sure we haven't convicted an innocent person.  In the misguided hopes of avoiding violating the rights of a handful of people, everyone's rights are completely and consistently violated.

Again, for those who think intellectual property is not a real right, it might seem ludicrous to use force to protect this right when there's a small chance (which you can do everything in your power to minimize) that you might wield that retaliatory force at someone who's innocent.  But if you view intellectual property rights as valid, it makes no sense to legally shred them.  The ability to use your ideas to further your own life is the foundation of intellectual property.  And that means controlling the use of your ideas.  Removing that control doesn't solve the problem, it ignores it.

There are real problems with the way intellectual property is defined and enforced today.  And it's been changing recently as well.  But before you can talk about improving the system, you have to decide whether you support intellectual property rights, including invention rights, or not.  If you do, you can't simply dismiss ownership.


Post 77

Friday, October 15, 2010 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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This is a thread deserving of rereading.... (Start with the article - which I agree with)
-------------

I think that progress could be made with better understanding of what the word "property" refers to. For example, my saying that I own my car, that it is my property, would seem to be clear enough. But what is clear enough for common, everyday usage isn't clear enough for a discussion of the roots of the fundamental ideas. There are four entities involved in my statement: me, my car, property, and ownership. The car is an object to which ownership might apply, I am a being that might exercise rights. But the car isn't the property and the ownership isn't of the car - not if we are being precise.

Bastiat took the position that property was not the object, but rather a relationship between people with respect to an object. I like best the description of "property" as a bundle of rights. From that perspective, I and my car become related to one another in this context by a bundle of rights. The relationship will include other people by implication and because rights only arise in the context of society. I own particular rights relative to the car and ownership becomes the claim or identification of that relationship to a particular bundle of rights (i.e., to be the one to have moral/legal standing for taking specific actions) in regards to the object (or idea).

I own a bundle of rights that include the right to sell my car, the right to drive my car, the right to destroy my car, the right to modify my car, the right to rent out my car, the right to let a friend drive my car, etc. Each of those rights are part of the bundle that connect me to my car in a moral/legal context. And they can be discussed or seen as hierarchical - the right to drive my car is part of, or rests upon, the right to use my car - that ability to parse rights into finer strands is important.

This intellectual structure where we view property as a bundle of rights connecting an owner to an object is very useful. Look at the difference if I had leased my car instead of buying it. I would still have property rights, but it isn't the same bundle. I no longer have the right to sell the car or to destroy it and there are some modifications that I wouldn't have right to make. The leasing company would have retained some of the bundle of rights they held regarding this car, while transfering others to me. If the leasing company holds title to the car but used it as collateral in a loan, there are rights that will belong to the maker of the loan. There is an extraordinarly large universe of possible rights that could potentially arise out of what actions are possible for an object (given the techological context). This allows for enormous variations in the arrangements we can make in free trade without the danger of stepping out of a context where moral rights can be translated into legal rights as objective law and justice obtained in our courts. Contracts at their root are about this parsing of bundles of rights and making specific and concrete the terms there of.

--------------------------

In post #44 Robert Bidinotto wrote, "ALL property rights are ultimately rooted in intellectual property rights, if you think about it. That's because no property rights can be claimed unless someone adds a creative element to some physical aspect of nature, transforming it into a human value.

It is that intellectual creativity that transforms nature to human use which we acknowledge when we honor property rights."


I suspect that Frederic Bastiat would have agreed. Take a look at this quote (keeping in mind that "property" for Bastiat was a bundle of rights), "Man is born a proprietor, because he is born with wants whose satisfaction is necessary to life, and with organs and faculties whose exercise is indispensable to the satisfaction of these wants. Faculties are only an extension of the person; and property is nothing but an extension of the faculties. To separate a man from his faculties is to cause him to die; to separate a man from the product of his faculties is likewise to cause him to die"

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