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Post 40

Friday, January 2, 2004 - 6:52amSanction this postReply
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Let me commend Neil Parille on his review of Rand’s critique of religion. We Objectivists need to hear good criticism of Rand regardless of the personal views of the author. Neil points out some of her weaknesses – faults that we must face. He obviously doesn’t agree with her overall critique.

As you point out, Neil, Rand’s definition of mysticism is non-traditional. It is clear from Rand’s quote (which starts with “What is mysticism?” in part II) that it is synonymous with irrationalism; you point this out following the quote: “[it] is ‘apart from’ or ‘against’ reason”. This use of the word mysticism is part of Rand’s rhetorical flair; she also does this when she uses the word tribalism for collectivism. Thus, irrational collectivism becomes, in Rand’s rhetorical style, mystic tribalism. Let’s face it: she’s a dramatist! I’ve always had mixed feelings concerning this style. However, if you replace mystic with irrational and tribal with collectivist, her analysis holds.

Common usage of the word “mystic” restricts the word to avowed mystics. Rand claims that upon analysis, all religion is mystical by virtue of rejecting or restricting the only means to knowledge: reason. Rand is not unique in this regard. I know many non-Objectivists who would call religion a superstition. If we take the word faith to mean more than confidence, which religion does, Rand is right: religion accepts a non-rational means to knowledge – upon analysis: mysticism. I would prefer that Rand add the phrase “upon analysis” to make it clear that she is not just referring to self-avowed mystics.

Rand’s rhetoric becomes more than strained when she uses the “mystic” label to advocates of reason that, upon analysis, have failed in their intention. Rand calls modern philosophers mystics, instead of saying that “upon analysis” their attempts to define and defend reason have failed. As a consequence, many Randroids toss off the mystic label with the glibness that Leftists use the pejorative fascist – directed against any opponent. It is considerable embarrassing to those of us who want a rational dialogue.

It is interesting that you focus your ethical discussion of religion, in part III, on original sin instead of altruism. It is the later that is the philosophical fundamental to which Rand’s critique is often associated. If you accept her view that self-sacrifice, as an end in itself, is tantamount to embracing suffering, pain, and non-value, then her analysis follows: altruism is anti-life. It then trivially follows that this morality cannot be fully practiced; the good can’t be perfected. Obviously, she elevates a common word, altruism, to mean anti-value. And, “upon analysis”, she claims that religion is antithetical to the values that life requires. Thus, once again, she uses the conclusion as a label.

Finally, you point out that Rand’s critique is not unique. I agree. However, you are mistaken to label her a materialist. That term is used in a far more restricted manner than the more appropriate term: naturalist. Materialist is a naturalist who views nature in mechanical terms only. Rand’s naturalism is more in line with the biological naturalism of Aristotle. In man, teleological explanations are central to understanding human nature.

However, Rand’s analysis is, as you point out, more anti-religious than her predecessors. She is against the metaphysics (supernaturalism), epistemology (faith), ethics (altruism), and political ideal (communal life) of Christianity. Past critics have tried to secularize the ethics and politics of Christianity. Conservatives point out that Socialists want heaven on earth but can’t accept that man is not good enough to practice it. Rand rejects the whole deal.

Neil has done us a service by carefully considering Rand’s views and giving us an outsider’s opinion. I welcome this. Thanks, Neil.

Rick

Post 41

Friday, January 2, 2004 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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To those who want me to give an completely defensible definition of "God" - try giving me a completely defensible definition of "a stone" first. This is a very hard task. If we can not even define the most simple of God's creations how can we define the greater?

As for not being able to point to God - many can., many do - but you all look at your feet instead.

I don't particularly support Spong's ideas. He is in fact more in line with objectivist thought that CS Lewis I would have thought. Have you actualy read any of his books? He is very very scorning of belief in the supernatural - or belief in anything not objectivly provable.

As for why do I post here....Imagine if only people who agreed with you posted here. What would you learn? How would you advance your own thought? You would become stagnant and close minded...I hope it is not too late,

Love Mary

Post 42

Friday, January 2, 2004 - 7:49pmSanction this postReply
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Mary Mary quite contrary
How do your arguments go?

I would say that people here tend to be far more open minded than you think. Someone who insists that something is there when it is plainly not and then claims that they just don't want to see it is truely closed-minded.

Post 43

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 5:04amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

Thanks for your comments. My goal in writing the essay was not to defend any particular religion, but simply point out that religion is a little more complex than Rand thought. I don't think anyone has actually said I'm wrong in claiming that Rand misunderstood the concept of mysticism, for example.

Post 44

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
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"I don't think anyone has actually said I'm wrong in claiming that Rand misunderstood the concept of mysticism, for example. "

You are wrong in claiming that Rand misunderstood the concept of mysticism.

You define it within a theological framework, when any such framework is invalid and irrlevant. Mysticism is an epistemic concept, as used in Objectivism, not a theological or spiritual concept.

Most importantly, I read the first two parts of your article, and I found nothing that reflects on Objectivism in general. So Rand was manichean and humanist : so what ? I'm neither and I don't consider these issues to be central to Objectivism.

Post 45

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 2:06pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan:

Answer my challenge then.

Post 46

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Francois,

I didn't define mysticism. Mysticism has a set meaning based on hundreds of years of use. It simply doesn't include everything that Rand might consider to be irrational. For example, von Mises was not a "mystic."

Post 47

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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Mary,

Pointless task, but I will say this: I can point to a lot of stones. I can see them, feel them, weigh them, categorize them by material, shape, and texture.

Your "God" is not perceivable to me in any form. You claim "he/she/it/they are real. prove it. Give me one piece of evidence that is more than vaporous words. You claim it is so so you prove it!

Post 48

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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"Pointless task" - just so!

Glad you see how silly these sorts of questions are...but then having realised this you go on to say:

"You claim it is so so you prove it!"

I think you are missing something here!

You have faith is what I call "Naive Materialism" - that is fine with me....good luck!

Post 49

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 6:02pmSanction this postReply
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Mary,

You misunderstand me. I say pointless task because you insist in believing in something that you have no evidence for. How can I expect my arguments, no matter how carefully worded and thought out ever make you see reality when you cleary refuse to see it now? Pointless task that wastes my time.

You then try to claim that I act on "faith" just like you. You can call me whatever you like and say what you like. It doesn't change the facts. Even if you convinced every other person on the planet that you were right, including me,without evidence it would still not change the fact that you are wrong. Show me the evidence and I'll admit I'm wrong. All you do is dodge the question, say it is unanswereable, say that we choose not to see the truth. Why? Why crusade here? You seem to hope to save people if I read some of your posts correctly. Save us from what? Joining in your rebellion against reality will not profit me at all.

You talk in circles and havn't given one reason why people should consider your position as the correct one. Beleive it because I say so and think its right doesn't work for me. But post away. Reality will assert itself on you in the end.

Post 50

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
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oh, my...
I go on vacation for two weeks, and the board goes to hell (pun intended).

Neil: I could say that the article was impressive to me, but I'd be lying. You don't really seem to be providing us with any indications that religion -- in and of itself -- is good, OR even to be defining what "religion" is.
(Remember, Mr. Pareil, YOU are predicating your entire argument on how somebody else -- Rand "uses words". You give no definition of Religion, and thus, leave us hanging, as to what you are talking about.

Then you turn in a complete circle, and assert that Rand "Deifies" Reality. What were you going for there? Is youre premise that Objectivists are a bunch of lying hypocrites because WE aren't REALLY atheists, but just thinly-veiled "theists"?
There's a REALLY big difference between your version of Theism (which I take to be some form of lukewarm Christianity), and our "Reality Diefication", which makes the whole thing totally different: WE cannot beg OUR "god" to go against it's own nature, just by WISHING REALLY HARD.
Our "god" (if that's what you insist on calling it), doesn't particularly CARE if it makes you sad that you can't fly just by flapping your arms, and unlike many of the "religionists"
out there you seem to be defending (Fallwell, etc.) we don't fun things like burn heretics at the stake.

Either define what you mean by "Theism" (and give your arguments/critiques come credibility), or fail to do so, it's your ballgame, but going on for four articles just to end up with "Rand's views on religion are pretty much similar to somebody else's", isn't going to make any headway.

You really didn't give us that much to work with, dude!

Cheers, all!

Post 51

Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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You didn't read my last post. I don't care what the THEOLOGICAL definition of mysticism is. We're not theologians.

I'm afraid I can't make it simpler than that. If you don't understand, there is nothing I can do.

Post 52

Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 5:30amSanction this postReply
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Henry,

I said that "to a certain extent" Rand defies [sic] matter and reality. I didn't say the identification was complete & I'm not saying that Objectivism is theism minus god. In any event, my goal wasn't to defend religion, but only to discuss Rand's view of it.

Francois,

The "epistemologial" definition of mysticism is: "In its most important sense, the terms refer to the union with God which is seen as the ultimate goal of the Christian life. This union is not to be thought of in rational terms, but more in terms of a direct consciousness or experience of God."

Post 53

Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 6:09amSanction this postReply
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That's the theological definition. It sets the word "mysticism" squarely within a religious context ("union with God"), and therefore is meaningless within an Objectivist context.

I don't see what's your point in arguing about this : there is nothing to debate here. If you disagree with the argument on the meaninglessness of religious language, you are free to prove otherwise, but denying that "union with God" is a theologican concept is plain stupid.

Post 54

Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Francois,

Read the definition, it talks about the epistomology of religious knowledge.

You can create all the definitions you want. You can say that anyone who thinks Atlas Shrugged isn't a great novel is a mystic, altruist, or a communist. But that would be just as illogical as Rand's use of "mysticism."

Post 55

Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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I've never said anything about disagreeing with Atlas Shrugged being evil. Get off your high horses and read what you're writing. "epistomology of religious knowledge" ? Hello McFly, that's called THEOLOGY (if you replace "knowledge" by "belief" : "religious knowledge" is a contradiction).

Post 56

Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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Francois,

Have you ever read anything other than Objectivist authors? Do you have a clue what you are talking about?

Post 57

Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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Neil, Mary, Francois, Henry, ethan, Rick,

Ayn Rand said:

"The truth or falsehood of all of man's conclusions, inferences, thought and knowledge rests on the truth or falsehood of his definitions."

She added parenthetically the following:

"(The above applies only to valid concepts. There are such things as invalid concepts, i.e., words that represent attempts to integrate errors, contradictions or false propositions, such as concepts originating in mysticism—or words without specific definitions, without referrants, which can mean anything to anyone, such as modern "anti-concepts." Invalid concepts appear occasionally in men's languages, but are usually—though not necessarily—short-lived, since they lead to cognitive dead-ends. An invalid concept invalidates every proposition or process of thought in which it is used as a cognitive assertion.)"

[Ayn Rand, Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, "Definitions," p.65]

At the end is one of the most important sentences in all of Ayn Rand's philosophy: An invalid concept invalidates every proposition or process of thought in which it is used as a cognitive assertion.

Neil identifies himself as a, "theist," and defines "mysticism" thus: The "epistemological" definition of mysticism is: "In its most important sense, the terms refer to the union with God which is seen as the ultimate goal of the Christian life. This union is not to be thought of in rational terms, but more in terms of a direct consciousness or experience of God."

A theist is one who asserts there is a, "diety," or God. Both Neil and Mary have flatly refused to tell us what a "God" is, meaning it is a word with no definition at all. It is certainly a candidate for being an invalid concept.

As for mysticism. Neil provides the very narrow meaning used only by theologians and those religious philosophers like Augustine, the schoolmen, and Aquinas, but certainly not any of the other philosophers, and certainly not by the Greek philosophers who preceded them all and invented the concept of mysticism:

"mysticism (Gk., mysterion, from mystes, "one initiated in the mysteries or secrets of a truer reality"). 1. The belief that the ultimate truth about reality can be obtained neither by ordinary experience not by the intellect by only by the MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE or by nonrational MYSTICAL INTUITION. The nature of reality is inexpressible and cannot be experienced in any ordinary experiential and rational way. 2. The nonrational, nonordinary experience of all-inclusive reality (or often of a transcendant reality) whereby the separateness of the self is merged with that reality usually regarded as the source or ground for the existence of all things. Mysticism believes that rational knowledge stresses differentiations, distinctions, separation, individuation; it distorts reality, and is therefore illusory."

[Dictionary of Philosophy, by Peter A. Angeles, p. 182]

Ayn Rand's use of the word mysticism was not her own private meaning at all. It is exactly the meaning it has always had in all of history since the Greeks invented it. It is an inclusive concept, the referrants are every variation of supposed knowledge derived by any means other than reason from the evidence, and applies to all religious and philosophical varieties, from the so-called "mystic wisdom" of the Vedas to the Christian concepts of "inspiration," and "revelation," to the mystic notions of "a priori" knowledge and mystic idealism in philosophy.

Pythagoras was the father of all modern versions of mysticism in both religion and philosophy.

There is hardly a philosopher Ayn Rand had more contempt for than Bertrand Russell (with the exception of Kant, of course), but Mr. Russell was a first rate mind, even if his own philosophy was mostly nonsense. He had an uncanny sense of history, however, and especially of the influence of philosophy on historical events.

Russell, as Neil mentioned, used mysticism in precisely the same way Rand did, because he understood the meaning of that word. Here is something from his History or Western Philosophy "Pythagoras", p. 37:

"The combination of mathematics and theology, which began with Pythagoras, characterized religious philosophy in Greece, in the Middle Ages, and in modern times down to Kant. Orphism before Pythagoras was analogous to Asiatic mystery religion. But in Plato, Saint Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Descartes, Spinoza, and Kant there is an intimate blending of religion and reasoning, of moral aspiration with logical admiration of what is timeless, which comes from Pythagoras, and distinguishes the intellectualized theology of Europe form the more straightforward mysticism of Asia. It is only in quite recent times that it has been possible to say clearly where Pythagoras was wrong. I do not know of any other man who has been as influential as he was in the sphere of thought. I say this because what appears as Platonism is, when analysed, found to be in essence Pythogoreanism. The whole conception of an eternal world, revealed to the intellect but not to the senses, is derived from him. But for him, Christians would not have thought of Christ as the Word; but for him, theologians would not have sought logical proofs of God and immorality. But in him all this is still implicit."

(I'm sure Rand never read this and would have found it amazing. I think she would have made changes in her epistemology if she had.)

In any case, it is obvious Mr. Parille's major points, that Ayn Rand did not really understand (or used her own meaning) of mysticism is totally incorrect, and his use of the undefined and therefore invalid concept of "God," totally "invalidates" his little screed.

Ayn Rand was not a student of religion. It is likely she didn't understand all of the subtle rationalizations of religionists. Why should she. Once you have established something is bunk, there is no need study every variation and permutation of it. When you discover you have stepped in to cesspool, you don't stop and study it, you get out of it as quickly as you can.

Regi

Post 58

Monday, January 5, 2004 - 5:07amSanction this postReply
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Regi,

Your quotation from Angeles actually proves my point. Even using a broader, philosophical definition, one can't find a definition of mysticism that covers half of what Rand called mysticism. There is nothing in Angles' definition that would lead one to believe that von Mises was a mystic, for example. Angeles doesn't state or imply that a person who believes in a priori knowledge is a mystic. Nor does his definition even cover most religious thinkers.

I'm not sure what the point of your quote from Russell is (his history of philosophy isn't seen as particuarly reliable, FYI). Russell was opposed to mysticism, but he certainly didn't use the term to describe his philosophy (a version of empiricism with certain rationalist elements).

Post 59

Monday, January 5, 2004 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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Your quotation from Angeles actually proves my point. Even using a broader, philosophical definition, one can't find a definition of mysticism that covers half of what Rand called mysticism.

"The belief that the ultimate truth about reality can be obtained neither by ordinary experience nor by the intellect ..." covers everything Rand called mysticism, including von Mises."

Angeles doesn't state or imply that a person who believes in a priori knowledge is a mystic. Nor does his definition even cover most religious thinkers.

Since a priori knowledge is knowledge gained, "neither by ordinary experience or by the intellect" he does.

"Religious thinkers," is an oxymoron. Unless you mean by religion, any ideology, religion ordinarily means some set of beliefs derived without reason (e.g. revelation, or inspiration, or "union with the ultimate reality.") Thinking is only another word for reasoning; therefore, "religious thinker," is equivalent it "non-thougt thinking."

I'm not sure what the point of your quote from Russell ...

Oh, I think you know. If you read it carefully, I think you will understand. I think you are mistaken, but I don't think you are stupid. It would be stupid if you did not understand the point of my Russell quote, or disingenuous.

... his history of philosophy isn't seen as particuarly reliable, FYI ... Reliable for what, and by whom? I know, you probably perfer Copleston. At least one can read Russell.

Russell was opposed to mysticism, but he certainly didn't use the term to describe his philosophy (a version of empiricism with certain rationalist elements).

Hmm...Russell was a monadist and logical positivist, I believe, greatly influenced by Leibnitz (that's where the notion of monads came from), but I would classify Russell as an inadvertent mystic. He certainly did not intend to be a mystic.

I quoted this earlier from Russell:

"It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatever for supposing it true." That would pertain to the notion of God or any other that is not based on reason from evidence.

Why would anyone believe a thing for which there is no evidence whatsoever, and for which there is no definition? Unless you care to provide either (evidence or definition) there is no point in the discussion--it amounts to "we believe in this we-don't-what on the basis of nothing-whatsoever," and attempting to convince others Ayn Rand was mistaken in calling such a belief mysticism.

Good luck!

Regi

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