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Post 0

Wednesday, July 3, 2002 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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The author appears to be completely ignorant of the human tendency to sin, which is less restrained in children than adults because of their lack of maturity and experience. If left to their own devices, left to teach themselves as the author suggests, they wouldn't. They'd go out and play and wouldn't care less about their own future or anyone else's. Civil society would gradually collapse as the younger generation replaced the older. Families, community organisations, companies and governments would cease to function.
Children must be disciplined and taught for their own good.

Post 1

Sunday, July 7, 2002 - 10:08pmSanction this postReply
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Are you trolling, or do you actually believe the nonsense you've posted? What is this "human tendency to sin" you speak of; you give no explanation whatsoever. Nor do you bother to explain why these children should care about the futures of unspecified others. Worst of all, you fail to explain why children "must be disciplined and taught for their own good."

If you want to train children as you would a dog, then do it to your own children. And try not to be too offended when I laugh as they turn upon you and take revenge upon you for raping their minds.

Post 2

Sunday, July 7, 2002 - 10:15pmSanction this postReply
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The Friend is wrong.I understand that children need structure and guidence.Public schools give nothing to that sort,they are evil and teach pain,humilation and suffering.My children go to a private school that I can barely pay for but it is well worth seeing my kids learn to their fullest.I agree with joseph.

Post 3

Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 2:26amSanction this postReply
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Children can [and currently do] learn the difference between right and wrong through their interactions with others, not through formal teaching. This kind of education is part of daily life and does not rely on a structured educational system.
On the subject of children going out to play, isn't it widely accepted that play is one of the main ways of learning?
Personally, I believe that the problem is that we're all on the bandwagon and don't know how to get off. Why do we teach the subjects we teach? Why do we want everyone to be educated? Where are we going with it all? We've built this big machine called civilisation, but I'm not quite sure I can see why we've chosen to constrain and control our animal behaviour so much.

Post 4

Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 5:54amSanction this postReply
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Aren't ignorance and oppression of others sins? Therefore, using Rowlands' technique, couldn't one say that if we wanted to encourage and require our children to sin as much as possible, there could hardly be a more effective instrument than a public school system that refuses to teach individual responsibility and self-reliance?

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Post 5

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 - 10:38pmSanction this postReply
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I think your game is quite revealing. I agree that the rank-and-file teachers, administrators, and politicians do not intend to cripple young minds. There are a few, however, who do understand what they are doing.
I have a five-year old daughter who reads to her younger sister. She delights in arithmetic problems and practices such things as counting by twos or fives. She is polite and funny. She looks at your eyes and listens when spoken to. I love her with all my heart. She has never spent a day in a classroom.

Post 6

Monday, March 10, 2003 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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If public education (actually state education) is really so bad, then I'm glad I have so little of it. I have only grade 9. But I read thousands of books. Knowledge books, not trash.

Anything I want to learn, I learn my own way. Books, internet, ask someone, experiment, think, whatever. It usually works.

My brother, Bob, read a book about welding. Then he applied for a job as a welder. At that time he had never welded before. The boss said: "Can you weld?" My brother said, "Sure, no problem." The boss said: "Let's see you weld.". He got the job. This is typical of my brother in everything he does.

Post 7

Monday, December 26, 2005 - 7:05amSanction this postReply
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This article should be required reading for parents. Irony is wonderful.

Ethan


Post 8

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 6:11pmSanction this postReply
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Bonking this back everyones unread messages. Someone read this article and post something. It's too good to let slip by.


Post 9

Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

It's not slipping by.

Sarah

(does this count as something?)

Post 10

Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 6:26pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Sarah,

Thanks. I just want to hear some discussion of this article. It's one of my favorites. I think it would result in a few good discussions. My daughter is almost school age.

Ethan


Post 11

Sunday, April 9, 2006 - 7:18pmSanction this postReply
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Well, Ethan, it hasn't resulted in the "few good discussions" we would hope for but it has been plagiarised by a New Zealand Member of Parliament:

http://www.marc-alexander-mp.org/2006/060407.htm

Maybe we'll end up discussing this.


Post 12

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 10:32amSanction this postReply
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Andrew, I'd be very careful about accusing someone of plagiarism simply because he wrote an article on the same premise of supposing someone were deliberately trying to miseducate, destroy, etc. That's not a unique idea (although it's a damn good one).

Unless there are exact, unattributed copies of the language in there (I only skimmed the article).

Post 13

Thursday, September 6, 2007 - 7:25amSanction this postReply
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BUMP

This article is always a good read during this time of year.


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Post 14

Thursday, September 6, 2007 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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This article is always a good read during this time of year. (Ethan)

Indeed!
Somehow I've never seen this one before. Excellent!

My own son, who is now 15 and just beginning his sophomore year in high school, has attended public shool for most of his life. But due to my influence at home, what he hears from his teachers is frequently questioned by him.
(If your child has to attend public school---because you don't happen to be wealthy enough to send him to a private academy)---then you need to make an effort to "counter" the crap he will learn there, and then not only will it not be as harmful to his development, he will learn to recognize it for what it is when it happens and actually be able to make judgments about it on his own.

Few things make me prouder than when my son has come home from school in a huff because "The teacher yelled at a girl for asking a question, and that's not right", or "Today, my teacher said that Democrats care about the poor and Republicans don't." (He just couldn't believe that she was allowed to make such a statement in class.) The fact that he knows not to automatically respect the opinions of his teachers was an important lesson I taught him (it went hand in hand with, "Not all adults deserve respect. Some of them are idiots. Remember that.")

In another instance, though, he was pleasantly surprised by a social studies teacher (a flamboyantly gay man whom he'd assumed would be especially liberal) who asked the class if the government should be responsible for everybody, and when he was met with answers of "Yes!" he promptly said, "No!" and proceeded to introduce the notion of personal responsibility to the class. A Log Cabin Republican, perhaps? I don't know. But my son had respect for that guy from that time on, and loved being in his class. (Sometimes your kid lucks out with one or two teachers in the system.)

Bottom line: if Montessori (or something just as good) isn't available to you (for whatever reason), EDUCATE your child at home as well. Ask him/her what they learned today in school (especially in fields like social studies and literature) and help them properly assess what they've been taught. And encourage them to do independent reading and learning on their own. (My son loves the library and the bookstore.)

Public education is not the only education your child will receive if you make an effort. :-)

Erica


Post 15

Thursday, September 6, 2007 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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Education is a life-long endeavor - and it begins as soon [or sooner even] as one learns to read and understand what is read...

Post 16

Monday, January 29 - 7:10pmSanction this postReply
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I get the message, of course.  But, at the detail level, I note the exceptions to this broad claim:

 

JR: One of the biggest threats to preventing education is the parents. They’re always wanting their children to be smarter and better informed so they can do something with their lives. 

 

That might have been true for Joseph Rowland's parents. It was certainly true for mine. But I have some broad counter-examples. 

 

First, shortly after I moved here to Austin in 2011, I saw an advertisement for a Hispanic-American Science Festival. I took down the contact information and volunteered. I helped unload trucks and set up the floor. Then, I delivered dog-and-pony talks in front of hands-on experiments in electricity and magnetism in one place, and fluids and aerodynamics in another. I had the opportunity to talk to one of the sponsors. Hispanic himself, of course, he said that they have a real challenge getting kids into engineering programs in college or basically just through high school. What happens is that a bright kid - a boy; forget girls - is discouraged from more education because his father expects him to follow in the same trade, whether carpentry or auto mechanics. It's a modest living, but a sure living, and, frankly, the father often feels threatened by the thought that his son will become "better" than he is.  On the same theme, some years later, I was working at the Texas Department of Public Safety as a technical writer, reviewing and editing contracts. I had spent most of the previous two years working as a security guard. (My degrees are in criminology.) So, I was chatting up the desk officer at the entrance and I recommended that she go to Austin Community College and get an associate's in criminal justice. She said that she was just looking into that now because she just received word that she was being promoted and transfered -- and she said, now that she was an adult living on her own, she could go to college without getting the criticism from her family who believe that girls do not need an education. 

 

Before you blame Hispanic culture - though not without reason...

 

Henry Ford's fanstastic $5 a day wages at a time when an unskilled worker earned $1 a day set the stage for generations of parents who could not help their kids with their homework. In Detroit, you could get a good-paying job without an education. In fact, an education could be a detriment on the assembly line. Fast forward to today and you see why Detroit is what it is: four generations of people who needed no education. 

 

We saw the same dichotomy in my own family. My mother was a social climber. Her sister settled. My brother and I were encouraged in education, but our cousins were not. Their father had a union job in a steel mill. He was a carpenter. They had a nice house, no doubt about it. Every strike, every lay-off, Uncle Harry was busting his butt with paneling or refinishing or something. But there was no need for the boys to get more education than trade school. I have another yarn about my cousin and what he taught me about my job as a technical writer, but for this discussion, I note that he had not been in a library since the one time they took the class in the 3rd grade. The other brother, our other cousin, became a sanitation worker. I understand: without sanitation workers a million doctors would not be enough, but the fact remains that two houses from the same family had two different views of education.  



Post 17

Sunday, February 4 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
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Good catch Marotta.  JR says: "[Parents are] always wanting their children to be smarter and better informed so they can do something with their lives."  Nothing is further from the truth, there are many parents out there that don't give a crap about their kid's education.  And I don't mean just helping out with homework, I mean that they don't give a crap how smart they are.

 

(Edited by Korben Dallas on 2/04, 10:20am)



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