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Post 60

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne, you solo SOLOist, you,
I first signed up to Solo because I presumed it was for those who considered themselves independent Objectivists, not associated with a group, i.e., "solo." I figured this is a place to converse with minds not shackled to any tribe or clique. But evidently, I'm the only true "SOLOist" present.
(My emphasis.)

LOL.

I don't know why I even bother with you.

Dayamm!

btw - Jason was not, is not, nor, I expect, will ever be a dishonest person. I have even seen him correct himself when he was wrong. And he is very intelligent. You're just pissed at him, that's all.

You be careful, though. You might find that he can squirt farther than you if he ever decided to.

Michael


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Post 61

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

It's completely understandable that you would be concerned - on the face of it - with my use of the term "SOLO" to pit myself (and sweepingly, others on this site) against everything that Shayne has exhibited in his responses to Joe's article. 

So, I'll clarify:  There are those on this site that I choose to call Sense of Life Objectivists, or "SOLO'ists" for short.  They are the ones who make solohq.com the place it is.  They exhibit the characteristics of passion (passionate sanction of what they love, passionate refusal to sanction what they do not); benevolence; humour; ambition/drive; and original thinking.  They seem well-adjusted and although not perfect, willing to admit it when they're wrong.  They - and the effects of their actions on this site - are the reason I stay here and participate in this site. 

The name came to me, obviously enough, because these are the dominant characteristics of this site.  They are the dominant characteristics of those I admire most on this site. 

Have you ever met someone who was an Objectivist but didn't know it? (Or, as someone would say, Objectivish)?  Someone who didn't know who Rand was but whose dominant virtues were the commitment to reason, honestly, integrity that you realize is necessary for a happy and successful life?  You might consider that person, informally, an Objectivist.  And so, I, informally, consider people such as I've described above as "Sense of Life" Objectivists.  There's nothing collectivist about it.  As Lindsay Perigo has pointed out elsewhere, voluntary association is not collectivism.  And being told that you do not exhibit any of the characteristics of what I have come to associate with a "SOLO'ist" does not force anyone exhibiting those characteristics into some collectivist association.

Come to think of it, Lindsay has his own name for these people; he calls them New Enlightenment Men.  It's no more collectivist for me to call someone a SOLOist (or not) than for Linz to deem someone a NEM (or not).  I hope this clears up any misunderstanding over my statement.

Jason


Post 62

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 5:04pmSanction this postReply
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You be careful, though. You might find that he can squirt farther than you if he ever decided to.
Michael, I'm laughing my behind off at that one.  Thanks for the vouching and the laugh!

Jason


Post 63

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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George:

Joe points out that "culture" and "people in general" are not the same. He's right. But it's a quibble.

The OED defines culture as: "The civilization, customs, artistic achievements, etc., of a people, esp. at a certain stage of its development or history." Culture is *of* the people.  It's not merely the "context in which people live" as Joe states. I mean, the earth is also the "context in which people live" - but the people aren't responsible for its creation. Culture is exclusively created by people considered as a group, i.e., people in general, i.e., the same "people are good" that Joe is talking about in his article, or as in "Americans" who created the American culture, or Iraqis, who created the Iraqi culture. I mean, who creates the culture if it's not "people in general"? Just a few evil guys in India, or a few good guys in America? Nonsense.

In Joe's simple example, he talks about the Indian government, and how "the people" aren't to blame for it. Certainly, we don't blame all of the individuals in a culture for the state of it. But then, when we're talking about individuals, we don't refer to them as "people in general", as Joe does in his article. So he wants to lump everyone into a group - "people in general" - and then unlump them when it's convenient so he can remove blame from the good guys. I say don't lump them together in the first place if you're trying to evaluate them. And call the Indian culture a mixed bag instead of "mostly good" if that's what it is.

Again, he's quibbling. But at least he's arguing the point in that paragraph, vs. all the loads of ad hominem he's heaping on me in the others.


Post 64

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 6:04pmSanction this postReply
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Shayne, your argument has some validity, but only to a point. Joe's comment to me set a light off in my head that I was conflating two distinct concepts, that although related (as you correctly have just pointed out), are *not* interchangeable. In my later posts to you, I began to use them as if they were; that was an error.

George


Post 65

Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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"I have never heard of any study like that - unless you are equating pessimism with having a critical attitude (which I do not). But anyway I would be fascinated to read about this. Really. Can you point me to any such study?"

A nice break from the 'Liking People' flamefest! It's been a long time since psych class so I don't recall the exact psych study references. Doing a quick search now I think the big one I was thinking of was either Taylor and Brown or Alloy and Abramson. Finding discussion of them isn't too hard, finding the original journal articles is (pay sites may have them). An interesting article I did find online (have only read through the first few pages so far) is one critiquing Taylor and Brown at http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~morton/modern_drama/depression3.pdf. There appears to definitely be debate among psychologists about both whether optimism helps you and whether pessimism is more realistic. The most common phrase I'm seeing used for the latter phenomenon is 'depressive realism'.


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Post 66

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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Well, What can I say, Mr  Joe Rowlands articles are true and beneficial!
Every time I read them, life shines and  I feel clean and groomed!

Ciro 

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 11/10, 12:47pm)


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Post 67

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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I will second that Ciro.

Many of his articles deserve a reread (and I haven't even read them all, either). They constitute a very fine thought-provoking body of work on Objectivism that is easily understood - even by those who are new to Rand's works.

(Ahem... btw, there is a typo in your post... it is "Rowlands," not "Rawlands.")

Michael


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Post 68

Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 1:39pmSanction this postReply
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Daymnnnn, thanks Michael, I hope Mr Pasotto didn't see it. lololol

He loves to see people making  mistakes!
but I must admit that his sarcastic attacks are very disciplinatory!
His only mistake is that  my benevolent irony, when  approaching   serious subjects, is  confused by him  as childishness.
 I hope that he will change his mind or, he had better be prepared, you know Michael..., I love fishing.lololololol

 BTW Michael, I love to describe all my thoughts , projects, and people, with one word.
If I had  to discribe you with one word, I would say "wholesome!"

Ciao.




Post 69

Friday, August 19, 2011 - 1:29pmSanction this postReply
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This old one is a good one.

Ed


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Post 70

Friday, August 19, 2011 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for bringing this back, Ed.
-------------

A lot of these posts get confused between individual versus human nature. And, man has the capacity to choose between being good or being bad (both out of human nature,and then by definition for each individual). We build and maintain character. So that it is a dynamic process. That is, our question isn't just is a man good or is a man bad, but are they becoming bad, staying bad, becoming good, staying good. Good and evil in this context are capacities. And when someone says that people are stupid, it isn't a reference to an accurately measured IQ level, but that people behave irrationally, unthinkingly. But people have the capacity to behave rationally or not. And we should judge individuals on an individual basis, but that is to an important degree, separate from judging human nature in this regard.

All of these choices that we are all making occur in a context and some contexts will encourage bad choices. Tyrannies, survival-level economies, highly irrational cultures... all examples that can encourage bad choices.

But none of those simple facts iterated above are what Joe appeared to be talking about in his article. He was talking about the disparity between what is meant by people who might say, "People are stupid and evil" and the facts. That facts say that outside of some very abnormal circumstances, most people are not stupid and evil.

The shortest way to prove his conclusion is simple - look at the fact that the more freedom in a given culture, as long as the initiation of violence is not allowed, the greater the human progress we see. Now, that wouldn't happen if most people were stupid and evil. Stupid and evil people, given freedom to follow their baser natures would take their society down lower and lower, but that isn't what we see.

Joe talks about the political gains that are inherent in telling this lie about human nature. If by nature we tend to be stupid and evil then we need to be controlled. Most of the article deals with the political side of this issue, but for me it is more interesting to talk about why someone would claim that irrationality and evil are dominate in man's nature - and that is a philosophical position. The evidence can't be rounded up to support that.

And that puts us into the category of psychology. That takes us to the question of why would someone project onto human nature the view that man is stupid and evil.

But before diving into the psychology of this, I should mention that Joe's article has the conclusion that it is your self-interest to see past any irrational or unneeded barriers to liking people... because it is rewarding to like people. He goes so far as to say that seeing the good in others is a virtue (and we Objectivists know that a virtue when practiced brings us rewards, and that is why its a virtue). I agree with this observation whole-heartedly!

-----------------------------------

Leaving politics and philosophy for psychology:

There are those that are projecting onto human nature what is within themselves. There are those who think or fear that they are stupid or basically a bad person and they go through life pretending to not be stupid or bad (even, when it isn't true). They might think that their ugly nature would take over if they let it, or that they only hold it in abeyance because of social or legal constraints. In the overwhelming number of cases this is nonsense. Their fears of this base nature they think they have are unjustified. Hint: We sometimes get some really stupid ideas of who we are when we are too young to know better and sometimes they persist into adulthood.

Or it could be a projection of shadow material - of material they have repressed, of thoughts that they might be stupid or evil that at some tender age were too awful to experience and were hidden from themselves. Thoughts that one experienced as too painful to live with in consciousness were banished to the subconscious and little subroutines erected whose job was to not let the conscious focus get to those thoughts - banishing them to the subconscious. And like all repressed material, there is no such thing as successful repression - there are kinds of emotional energy, and certain processes that are the necessary side effects of repression - the price to be paid. In this case the content leaks out and gains expression in the projection onto humanity. Emotions clamor to be felt - its there nature. And the bad decision made is that it is better to feel disdain, disgust, and hatred for others than ones self.

But I'd say that far more often it is none of the above. Instead it is one of the many ways we distance ourselves from others to avoid some imagined hurt. We don't feel sufficiently appreciated - must be because others are too stupid to see our great value. We have a dread of being rejected, so we reject humanity and take the lonely path that others are too stupid to see. We fear that we might have our well being taken from us in some unnamed fashion, because others are to be feared (and then after experience takes away the sense of danger, it is replaced with disdain for those stupid, evil others).

Self-esteem is the antidote to most of the above. Particularly the virtue of self-acceptance. To the degree that we have ferrited out every negative thought or feeling we have about ourself and cast out those that are false, and accepted those that are true (not in the sense of going over to the dark side, but in the sense of, "This is true of me now, but I'll not disown it or act on it"), we project onto others the benevolence we are showing to ourselves. When we are split internally, we see a split between ourselves and others. When we attempt to hide an aspect of ourselves from ourselves we set the stage for not seeing others clearly.

Being a cynic, a curmudgeon, a pessismist, a misanthrope are all more likely to be defensive strategies whose patterns were acquired at an early age. They "feel" right, but only because there is some hidden fear/shame/anger/hurt that it "feels" wrong to allow ourselves to experience - a chunk of emotinal food that has never been digested and passed on.

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